New brass vs reloaded cases….. insufficient prep?

[Andy seatrout]

Hi there,

Another question/ gauging opinion….

Doing some reloading for copper with Nosler expansion tips in 6.5 swede. The bullet is the same 120g in both batches…..

The new lapua cases turned out a nice consistent 2,827 average fps with 44.7gr of RS60 ( seems like a sweet spot as 46gr gives you poorer accuracy and a bigger kick for only another 90fps)….

Standard deviation was 20.5 fps and spread was 50, which is similar to some factory rounds as I used as a benchmark….

Then some twice reloaded cases- not tumbled or trimmed, but cleaned inside with wire brush and primer pocket…. Same velocity ( same charge same bullet) but standard deviation is 36.3 and spread is 95…..

My questions are;

1) do you tumble and clean brass every time
2) do you trim brass every time, or just measure and trim as needed? I’ve been a bit slack at this I fear

I appear to be reaping what I sow due to poor prep??? Or is it a fact that new cases will give that bit better results?

Opinions please…..

 

[Cottis]

Cleanliness of cases is unlikely to show such difference. I don't tumble mine and I get ES figures around the 25fps mark which is more than I need. I do use good brass. Lapua all the time.

For me, consistency of reloads is mostly down to neck tension and charge weighing. Brass that has been fired a couple of times already and I presume not annealed, will probably suffer with less consistent neck tension than virgin brass. This might explain your findings.

Trimming wise, I always measure my cases and trim to length each time. The trimmer might not touch some cases if they have not grown which is fine but there are always some that have grown a bit. I think it is worth making sure they are not too long and keeping them all to the same size.

 

[One on top of two]

Your neck sizing yes ?

 

[Foxyboy43]

Tumble very rarely, use same brand of case, always trim to same length, neck-size and crimp.
Simples!

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Hi there,

Another question/ gauging opinion….

Doing some reloading for copper with Nosler expansion tips in 6.5 swede. The bullet is the same 120g in both batches…..

The new lapua cases turned out a nice consistent 2,827 average fps with 44.7gr of RS60 ( seems like a sweet spot as 46gr gives you poorer accuracy and a bigger kick for only another 90fps)….

Standard deviation was 20.5 fps and spread was 50, which is similar to some factory rounds as I used as a benchmark….

Then some twice reloaded cases- not tumbled or trimmed, but cleaned inside with wire brush and primer pocket…. Same velocity ( same charge same bullet) but standard deviation is 36.3 and spread is 95…..

My questions are;

1) do you tumble and clean brass every time
2) do you trim brass every time, or just measure and trim as needed? I’ve been a bit slack at this I fear

I appear to be reaping what I sow due to poor prep??? Or is it a fact that new cases will give that bit better results?

Opinions please…..

Some very experienced folk only reload new cases...
My pockets don't stretch to that approach. I do expect my new brass and fired brass to perform differently.
Have fun.
JCS

 

[JTO]

Some people anneal after every firing!

 

[Andyquadra]

What brand is the twice fired brass?

 

[muddy42]

Out of interest how did accuracy compare between the batches? You imply you are getting the same average velocity, just more variation? If the second batch is still acceptable accurate, I wouldn't stress too much, just try to use the same prep routine for large batches of reloads.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

One thing to consider is that the first (cold) shot of your group may be significantly slower or faster than the remaining shots in a group. I'm seeing this consistently with my 260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor. In the example below, The yellow set of calculated figures are for all five rounds, the green set of calculated figures does not include the initial shot. Interestingly, the first shot is in the centre of the group at 264 yards.
Regards
JCS

 

[Andy seatrout]

Your neck sizing yes ?

Full length sizing

 

[Andy seatrout]

Out of interest how did accuracy compare between the batches? You imply you are getting the same average velocity, just more variation? If the second batch is still acceptable accurate, I wouldn't stress too much, just try to use the same prep routine for large batches of reloads.

It was acceptable, it’s only a shortish range of 85 yards ( hard to find a forestry track without a curve or a dog-leg in Wales) I’m not a super long range shooter….. inside 150 yards is my comfort zone….

 

[Andy seatrout]

One thing to consider is that the first (cold) shot of your group may be significantly slower or faster than the remaining shots in a group. I'm seeing this consistently with my 260 Rem and 6.5 Creedmoor. In the example below, The yellow set of calculated figures are for all five rounds, the green set of calculated figures does not include the initial shot. Interestingly, the first shot is in the centre of the group at 264 yards.
Regards
JCS

That’s a thought….. there is a variation on The first shot it’s 30fps slower than average (see photo below) please ignore the group size I was just trying to focus on the chronograph….. and was breaking hold to check the phone was recording the data….the load groups much better than this….

Actually Post script; this was the better data with new brass, the old brass shows variance between shots…. Not necessarily the first…

 

[Andy seatrout]

What brand is the twice fired brass?

Lapua…..

 

[mealiejimmy]

Hi there,

Another question/ gauging opinion….

Doing some reloading for copper with Nosler expansion tips in 6.5 swede. The bullet is the same 120g in both batches…..

The new lapua cases turned out a nice consistent 2,827 average fps with 44.7gr of RS60 ( seems like a sweet spot as 46gr gives you poorer accuracy and a bigger kick for only another 90fps)….

Standard deviation was 20.5 fps and spread was 50, which is similar to some factory rounds as I used as a benchmark….

Then some twice reloaded cases- not tumbled or trimmed, but cleaned inside with wire brush and primer pocket…. Same velocity ( same charge same bullet) but standard deviation is 36.3 and spread is 95…..

My questions are;

1) do you tumble and clean brass every time
2) do you trim brass every time, or just measure and trim as needed? I’ve been a bit slack at this I fear

I appear to be reaping what I sow due to poor prep??? Or is it a fact that new cases will give that bit better results?

Opinions please…..

The reloaded cases will be harder so the actual neck tension generated by whatever dies you are using will not be the same as new brass.
You might want to consider annealing the fired cases to get the brass hardness back to the same as new brass

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Andy seatrout]

Thanks for all your replies, gives me food for thought….. I’d like to get some better consistency….. I’m still learning so thanks for the helpful replies

 

[Utectok]

Hi there,

Another question/ gauging opinion….

Doing some reloading for copper with Nosler expansion tips in 6.5 swede. The bullet is the same 120g in both batches…..

The new lapua cases turned out a nice consistent 2,827 average fps with 44.7gr of RS60 ( seems like a sweet spot as 46gr gives you poorer accuracy and a bigger kick for only another 90fps)….

Standard deviation was 20.5 fps and spread was 50, which is similar to some factory rounds as I used as a benchmark….

Then some twice reloaded cases- not tumbled or trimmed, but cleaned inside with wire brush and primer pocket…. Same velocity ( same charge same bullet) but standard deviation is 36.3 and spread is 95…..

My questions are;

1) do you tumble and clean brass every time
2) do you trim brass every time, or just measure and trim as needed? I’ve been a bit slack at this I fear

I appear to be reaping what I sow due to poor prep??? Or is it a fact that new cases will give that bit better results?

Opinions please…..

I find new Lapau 6.5 swede brass very tight on the neck and my reloads are a lot wider. I now expand the neck of the new brass but I still don’t get it to shoot as well as reloads. I’d be a bit suspicious of any results from unfired brass

 

[Utectok]

I don’t think my case trimmer mandril even fits in new lapau brass it’s that tight.
Run tests and ladders with second firing brass

 

[NullMac]

Standard deviation was 20.5 fps and spread was 50, which is similar to some factory rounds as I used as a benchmark….

Then some twice reloaded cases- not tumbled or trimmed, but cleaned inside with wire brush and primer pocket…. Same velocity ( same charge same bullet) but standard deviation is 36.3 and spread is 95…..

My questions are;
1) do you tumble and clean brass every time
2) do you trim brass every time, or just measure and trim as needed? I’ve been a bit slack at this I fear

Not relevant.

I appear to be reaping what I sow due to poor prep??? Or is it a fact that new cases will give that bit better results?

No you are not.

Opinions please…..

Both loads are, let us say, "unacceptable".

Forget tumbling, cleaning, trimming, your problems do not lie there. What you are seeing are probably symptoms of poor combustion.

If you are handloading and the sd is 20 then really it is twice what you should be aiming for. So I would not be thinking about 36 is worse than 20, more that that level of variation is pointing to "big" inconsistencies in (probably) powder weight, maybe neck tension or maybe a primer problem. Could be a poor powder choice.

So if it was me, I would be full length resizing some cases from the same batch of brass, trimming to length then getting really picky on loading to an exact powder weight. If the numbers were still poor then I would be changing powder. Never loaded 6.5 Swede so can't recommend the go to powder.

 

[NullMac]

I find new Lapau 6.5 swede brass very tight on the neck and my reloads are a lot wider. I now expand the neck of the new brass but I still don’t get it to shoot as well as reloads. I’d be a bit suspicious of any results from unfired brass

I have had some excellent results from virgin Lapua brass. It is very consistent

 

[Utectok]

I have had some excellent results from virgin Lapua brass. It is very consistent

In 6.5 swede? I found .308 lapau brass excellent out of the box but not the 6.5