6.5 Grendel loads?

[Howa]

I'm currently running my CZ MTR 6.5 Grendel with Lapua cases, Sierra M/King 107gr HPBT, CCI Small rifle primers, 28.0gr Ramshot Tac powder at OAL 2.25

At 100 yards excellent results, at 200 yards (my ranges maximum length) accuracy pretty good.
I also have N133 and BL C(2) available for use

My query is, are there any members using other permutations of what I have available, or other powders etc and getting excellent accuracy for this type of rifle?
Thank you.

 

[Laurie]

I've used both TAC and N133 in a Howa Mini 1500 Oryx with 120gn bullets and have just started trying 123s. My best performing load to date is the 120gn Scenar-L and N133 which is just a bit ahead of the TAC groups. It shoots well on paper to 300 yards. Alliant AR-Comp and N130 will be tried later this year too.

 

[Howa]

I think that firstly I will first try all three powders which I have available to see if any noticeable difference, and then move on to trying a heavier bullet, but I'm not sure if although the range I shoot on can be very windy, would bullet weight over 200 yards be much difference?

 

[Muir]

If available, try LOVEX D073.6 with 120 - 123 grain bullets. ~Muir

 

[Howa]

Thanks Muir, I've just checked for the Lovex powder, it's marketed here as Accurate.
Next time I travel out of my area, I'll check firearms dealers in that area.
Powder can be bought over the counter, but to purchase and have sent by post, charges exorbitant!
The heavier bullets I can obtain.

 

[borbal]

Are Accurate powders still made by Lovex? I read elsewhere that this ceased when Western Powders bought the Accurate line.

 

[Laurie]

Thanks Muir, I've just checked for the Lovex powder, it's marketed here as Accurate.

No, it's not. It was 20 odd years ago until the former Accurate Arms Co. in the USA changed owners who in turn changed suppliers. Hodgdon/Western Powders even has a warning on its website not to use 'Accurate' loads data for European made Explosia's Lovex brand powders as they are not the same.

European Warning « Accurate Powders

We don't receive any 'Accurate' brand powders in this country in fact, although that may change now that Hodgdon owns the Ramshot/Accurate operation.

Lovex powders were imported into the UK by Westlander Ltd, a small Yorkshire outfit who is still doing it I think, but Reloading UK claims to be the main importer on its website. Lovex powders distribution is patchy, so you might have trouble finding a local retailer.

Here's what it looks like, from outside the bottle anyway!

Lovex - CDSG Ltd

Explosia has limited loads data, but that doesn't include the Grendel. Shooters World in the USA imports Lovex powders and sell them under different names and has loads data for the Grendel. It sells DO73.6 as Shooters World 'Match Rifle D073-06', so look up the table for that powder here and scroll down to Page 38 where you'll find this powder and four bullet weights in 6.5mm Grendel.

https://shootersworldpowder.com/wp-...nualInterior_CHRIS_WITH-COVER__03102020-1.pdf

 

[Muir]

As above. You'll note that the data was updated less than 6 months ago.
D073.6 is a powder for all seasons. My girlfriend runs it in 223, 7-08 and 308 x175 grain. Good stuff.~Muir

 

[25 Sharps]

If available, try LOVEX D073.6 with 120 - 123 grain bullets. ~Muir

This

No, it's not. It was 20 odd years ago until the former Accurate Arms Co. in the USA changed owners who in turn changed suppliers. Hodgdon/Western Powders even has a warning on its website not to use 'Accurate' loads data for European made Explosia's Lovex brand powders as they are not the same.

European Warning « Accurate Powders

We don't receive any 'Accurate' brand powders in this country in fact, although that may change now that Hodgdon owns the Ramshot/Accurate operation.

Lovex powders were imported into the UK by Westlander Ltd, a small Yorkshire outfit who is still doing it I think, but Reloading UK claims to be the main importer on its website. Lovex powders distribution is patchy, so you might have trouble finding a local retailer.

Here's what it looks like, from outside the bottle anyway!

Lovex - CDSG Ltd

Explosia has limited loads data, but that doesn't include the Grendel. Shooters World in the USA imports Lovex powders and sell them under different names and has loads data for the Grendel. It sells DO73.6 as Shooters World 'Match Rifle D073-06', so look up the table for that powder here and scroll down to Page 38 where you'll find this powder and four bullet weights in 6.5mm Grendel.

https://shootersworldpowder.com/wp-...nualInterior_CHRIS_WITH-COVER__03102020-1.pdf

didn’t know that, certainly when I ran D073.5 and AA2460 in QL for the 25-45 it gave the exact same results for both powders. It also gave the same results in my rifle too, AA2460 being the first powder I got it reliably and safely over 1700 ft-lb with.

Could the warning not simply be hodgdon trying to protect their market?

Don’t know who put the label in my bottles but all 3 have this and they were bought from 2 different RFD sources.

 

[Laurie]

I think in the absence of manufacturers' updates, QuickLOAD still uses Explosia data as today's Accurate and Lovex default values often appear to be the same.

Also, Accurate 2520 has an identical printed table for the Grendel in the former Western Powders reloading guide to its table for Ramshot Wild Boar which is definitely a Belgian (PB Clermont) made grade. The two are the same right down to the bullets used, MV and pressures to the last unit of fps and psi. Nevertheless, Americans on another forum assure me that 2520 is labelled 'Made in USA' and comes from the former Olin, now General Dynamics, St. Marks plant in Florida. So, these ['Accurate'] powders swap and switch sources around it seems.

However no Accurate grades are made by Explosia (the Lovex manufacturer). If extruded, they're made by general Dynamics in Canada (which also makes most IMR powder grades); if ball they're from St. Marks, possibly PB Clermont in Belgium at the margins. (All Ramshot grades have been from PB Clermont, at least before Hodgdon bought Western Powders out recently.) Hodgdon has a very close relationship with General Dynamics St. Marks, so one would expect further developments from that source which might see changes to former Western Powders products in the coming years. We get Ramshot grades directly from the Belgian factory thanks to Henry Krank, but no formerly Western Powders / now Hodgdon 'Accurate' grades come to us from the USA.

The sticker at the bottom of your bottle is a reference to the pre-2004 situation where Explosia in the Czech Republic supplied most Accurate grades including 2460. When Western Powders took the former Accurate Arms operation over in 2004, it changed suppliers to General Dynamics whether Valleyfield in Quebec Province or St. Marks in the USA and hasn't bought any Czech powders since. Here and elsewhere in Europe, the same powders as before continued, but now renamed as Lovex D0 or S0 numeric grades. To let people know what they were buying, the Lovex grades here at least had 'Formerly Accurate Whatever' overstickers added by the distributor. Western Powders wasn't at all happy about this seeing it as a misuse of their trademarked product name and substitution of their product. As it seems it couldn't stop the practice, it put the warning to European handloaders up on its website. As the 'new' (Western Powders provided) Accurate and 'old' (Explosia manufactured) Accurate powders are reasonably close in charges and performance I've no doubt many people have used Western's data for post 2004 Lovex loads though. Western was nevertheless making the point that they're not the same and having failed to stop over-stickering covered itself legally through the warning. This has nothing to do with new owner Hodgdon directly. Somebody has simply gone through the former Western Powders' website and reloading data documents and altered company names where appropriate to reflect the new ownership.

I don't know if such over-stickering continues. My recent purchases are 100% 'Lovex'. Explosia a.s. continues though to show 'similar to' links to today's Accurate grades in its Lovex material and equivalent pairs are shown side by side in burn rate charts. In the USA, Explosia powders are now being again imported after a 15 years absence by Shooters World which uses its own names for the Lovex grades it has adopted, but usually with a Lovex link too. It is building up its own database of pressure-tested loads including some of the many US originating cartridges that Explosia ignores (eg 260 Rem and the Creedmoors), so its website can be worth a visit for some Lovex powders. It seems though that D073.5 hasn't been adopted by SW.

Bulk Propellant - Ammunition | Shooters World

 

[Muir]

Hodgdon/Accurate 2460 is definitely not D073.6 if the velocity and pressurer data is to be believed. Data for a 120 grain Sierra tops at 2400 fps and change @ 51K pressure. The SW pressure and velocity data for the same bullet has almost 2625 fps at roughly the same pressures. My CZ easily bests the SW D073.6 data while staying 1 grain under listed max. ~Muir

 

[25 Sharps]

Hodgdon/Accurate 2460 is definitely not D073.6 if the velocity and pressurer data is to be believed. Data for a 120 grain Sierra tops at 2400 fps and change @ 51K pressure. The SW pressure and velocity data for the same bullet has almost 2625 fps at roughly the same pressures. My CZ easily bests the SW D073.6 data while staying 1 grain under listed max. ~Muir

The powder I was comparing to AA2460 and have shown a photo of is D073.5 not 6.

 

[25 Sharps]

I think in the absence of manufacturers' updates, QuickLOAD still uses Explosia data as today's Accurate and Lovex default values often appear to be the same.

Also, Accurate 2520 has an identical printed table for the Grendel in the former Western Powders reloading guide to its table for Ramshot Wild Boar which is definitely a Belgian (PB Clermont) made grade. The two are the same right down to the bullets used, MV and pressures to the last unit of fps and psi. Nevertheless, Americans on another forum assure me that 2520 is labelled 'Made in USA' and comes from the former Olin, now General Dynamics, St. Marks plant in Florida. So, these ['Accurate'] powders swap and switch sources around it seems.

However no Accurate grades are made by Explosia (the Lovex manufacturer). If extruded, they're made by general Dynamics in Canada (which also makes most IMR powder grades); if ball they're from St. Marks, possibly PB Clermont in Belgium at the margins. (All Ramshot grades have been from PB Clermont, at least before Hodgdon bought Western Powders out recently.) Hodgdon has a very close relationship with General Dynamics St. Marks, so one would expect further developments from that source which might see changes to former Western Powders products in the coming years. We get Ramshot grades directly from the Belgian factory thanks to Henry Krank, but no formerly Western Powders / now Hodgdon 'Accurate' grades come to us from the USA.

The sticker at the bottom of your bottle is a reference to the pre-2004 situation where Explosia in the Czech Republic supplied most Accurate grades including 2460. When Western Powders took the former Accurate Arms operation over in 2004, it changed suppliers to General Dynamics whether Valleyfield in Quebec Province or St. Marks in the USA and hasn't bought any Czech powders since. Here and elsewhere in Europe, the same powders as before continued, but now renamed as Lovex D0 or S0 numeric grades. To let people know what they were buying, the Lovex grades here at least had 'Formerly Accurate Whatever' overstickers added by the distributor. Western Powders wasn't at all happy about this seeing it as a misuse of their trademarked product name and substitution of their product. As it seems it couldn't stop the practice, it put the warning to European handloaders up on its website. As the 'new' (Western Powders provided) Accurate and 'old' (Explosia manufactured) Accurate powders are reasonably close in charges and performance I've no doubt many people have used Western's data for post 2004 Lovex loads though. Western was nevertheless making the point that they're not the same and having failed to stop over-stickering covered itself legally through the warning. This has nothing to do with new owner Hodgdon directly. Somebody has simply gone through the former Western Powders' website and reloading data documents and altered company names where appropriate to reflect the new ownership.

I don't know if such over-stickering continues. My recent purchases are 100% 'Lovex'. Explosia a.s. continues though to show 'similar to' links to today's Accurate grades in its Lovex material and equivalent pairs are shown side by side in burn rate charts. In the USA, Explosia powders are now being again imported after a 15 years absence by Shooters World which uses its own names for the Lovex grades it has adopted, but usually with a Lovex link too. It is building up its own database of pressure-tested loads including some of the many US originating cartridges that Explosia ignores (eg 260 Rem and the Creedmoors), so its website can be worth a visit for some Lovex powders. It seems though that D073.5 hasn't been adopted by SW.

Bulk Propellant - Ammunition | Shooters World

Thanks Laurie. Regards the label and being pre 2004 all those were purchased in last 24 months, they could be old stock but Dauntsey Guns weren’t sticking them that long ago from memory.

Do you know what lovex grade shooters world market as ‘Buffalo’ as it looks handy for reduced loads in pretty much all cartridges?

 

[Laurie]

Do you know what lovex grade shooters world market as ‘Buffalo’ as it looks handy for reduced loads in pretty much all cartridges?

Yes, Lovex D060, the one-time Accurate Arms XMR-5744. It was developed as a black powder substitute that would produce similar pressures in 19th century cartridges, especially the American 40s through 50s. A secondary use is for reduced velocity lead bullet loads with more modern rifle cartridges. Pre-Western Powders, the old Accurate Company produced a free A5 size mini loading manual just for this powder with data for both types of application. I once had a copy, but appear to have lost it. Many cartridges also have reduced gas-checked lead bullet loads in Accurate's 2001 No.2 Reloading Manual which aren't restricted to 5744/D060 but invariably include it which I do still have. (Just have to translate the old Accurate powder names to Lovex to use it.)

It's designed to produce very consistent pressures and performance in reduced loads even when pressures are low by modern smokeless powder standards and with empty space in the case under the bullet - no compression needed. (It's not super-bulky like IMR Trail Boss which was designed with a different primary purpose ie to fill 38 Special and similar cases in low performance loads and thereby avoid double charges in very light Cowboy Action loads.) 5744/D060 has a good reputation for doing what it says on the tin. My experience is limited going back a long time, but it's certainly a very useful number if you're into light loads or cartridges like 45-70, 40-65 and suchlike. Strangely, hardly anybody seems to know about it here, or at least if people do I rarely meet them.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes, Lovex D060, the one-time Accurate Arms XMR-5744. It was developed as a black powder substitute that would produce similar pressures in 19th century cartridges, especially the American 40s through 50s. A secondary use is for reduced velocity lead bullet loads with more modern rifle cartridges. Pre-Western Powders, the old Accurate Company produced a free A5 size mini loading manual just for this powder with data for both types of application. I once had a copy, but appear to have lost it. Many cartridges also have reduced gas-checked lead bullet loads in Accurate's 2001 No.2 Reloading Manual which aren't restricted to 5744/D060 but invariably include it which I do still have. (Just have to translate the old Accurate powder names to Lovex to use it.)

It's designed to produce very consistent pressures and performance in reduced loads even when pressures are low by modern smokeless powder standards and with empty space in the case under the bullet - no compression needed. (It's not super-bulky like IMR Trail Boss which was designed with a different primary purpose ie to fill 38 Special and similar cases in low performance loads and thereby avoid double charges in very light Cowboy Action loads.) 5744/D060 has a good reputation for doing what it says on the tin. My experience is limited going back a long time, but it's certainly a very useful number if you're into light loads or cartridges like 45-70, 40-65 and suchlike. Strangely, hardly anybody seems to know about it here, or at least if people do I rarely meet them.

Thanks very much, I had never seen this use for it y til you posted the shooters world link above.

Looks a very handy powder for folk looking at reduced loads now trail boss is off the menu

 

[Muir]

The powder I was comparing to AA2460 and have shown a photo of is D073.5 not 6.

Sorry about the misread.
Isn't AA2460 Accurate Arms 2460? (Now Hodgdons line?) ~Muir

 

[Muir]

Thanks very much, I had never seen this use for it y til you posted the shooters world link above.

Looks a very handy powder for folk looking at reduced loads now trail boss is off the menu

I used 5744 in my 308 and 30-06 match loads for the Cast Bullet Assn Comps. Excellent accuracy.~Muir

 

[Laurie]

Sorry about the misread.
Isn't AA2460 Accurate Arms 2460? (Now Hodgdons line?) ~Muir

Yes, in the US anyway nowadays. Lovex D073.5 was labelled and sold both here and in the US as Accurate-2460 until the Western Powders takeover. It has continued in the US under the same name but sourced from somebody else since then - presumably St. Marks Powder in Florida. It has also continued here (as Lovex D073.5), but not in the US, as Shooters World hasn't adopted this grade.