Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[Liveonce]

Well the phasing out of lead is only being applied to animals going into the food chain. For all those rifles being used for target shooting they will continue to be able to use lead bullets.

That would certainly be nice, but even the bill going through the House of Lords now by a Scottish MP is calling for a total ban on lead in ammunition.

 

[Liveonce]

You can still use your old guns, but you’ll be shooting expensive custom bismuth loads, same thing with the small bores. There’s no viable substitute for lead in the .22 so we’ll be keeping it for a while yet

so we keep lead for .22 but not 28ga or .410 again nice idea.

 

[25 Sharps]

If the aim is to get rid of lead shot and lead bullets in game, then the transition will have to be pretty immediate.
How long were the wildfowlers given?
There’ll probably be an accommodation for target sports and .22 rimfire which may help spread things out a bit.

So by your logic it will be illegal to own lead bullets for game but legal for target sports and vermin?

That won’t work.

And as noted above, the aim isn’t simply to remove it from game, it’s to remove it from the whole environment, potentially.

 

[25 Sharps]

You can still use your old guns, but you’ll be shooting expensive custom bismuth loads, same thing with the small bores. There’s no viable substitute for lead in the .22 so we’ll be keeping it for a while yet

No viable alternative in .22?

There are several non toxic loadings available. They don’t shoot for toffee but do you think the law makers will understand or worry about that?

 

[Liveonce]

Lots of I’m ok jack sod the rest of you on hear, ask yourself this if different discipline of the sport ended what impact would it have on your sport?
How long would you local gun shop keeping going without say clay pigeon shooting or target rifle shooting?

Then cartridge sales for just game shooting no longer support all the different U.K. manufactures, little competition so up, up go the prices.

What will you do when it is uneconomical to import powder and primers leaving only say one importer of ammunition and a very long journey to your nearest gun shop to buy it at £20 a round.

The industry is a complicated web, we all need each other.

 

[25 Sharps]

Lots of I’m ok jack sod the rest of you on hear, ask yourself this if different discipline of the sport ended what impact would it have on your sport?
How long would you local gun shop keeping going without say clay pigeon shooting or target rifle shooting?

Then cartridge sales for just game shooting no longer support all the different U.K. manufactures, little competition so up, up go the prices.

What will you do when it is uneconomical to import powder and primers leaving only say one importer of ammunition and a very long journey to your nearest gun shop to buy it at £20 a round.

The industry is a complicated web, we all need each other.

When the voluntary ban was first announced I argued similar to the above, people are very, very blinkered to their own interests and that will be the death of shooting sports

 

[Heym SR20]

So by your logic it will be illegal to own lead bullets for game but legal for target sports and vermin?

That won’t work.

And as noted above, the aim isn’t simply to remove it from game, it’s to remove it from the whole environment, potentially.

There is a big difference between shooting bullets into game where the bullet then goes into the ground. Versus shooting on a range where the bullets are all going into a sandtrap / berm / butt or whatever you like to call where from time to time the whole lot is sifted, bullets are recovered and sent for recycling.

And on many clay ranges - especially on the continent this also happens. Admittedly not the most attractive of places, and not green and pleasant woodland like many sporting layouts.

And as for not using lead on game, well it already happens on the foreshore and most Wildfowling clubs strictly enforce lead free, and if you break the rules you are kicked out.

 

[Dunwaters]

No viable alternative in .22?

There are several non toxic loadings available. They don’t shoot for toffee but do you think the law makers will understand or worry about that?

Yes, because its an Olympic sport and the cost of compensating owners will be far higher than for just about anything else if theres no viable alternative.

 

[Dunwaters]

So by your logic it will be illegal to own lead bullets for game but legal for target sports and vermin?

That won’t work.

And as noted above, the aim isn’t simply to remove it from game, it’s to remove it from the whole environment, potentially.

I think you’re correct, the initial ban will be for game, starting with deer and fowl and will be expanded to included target shooting, particularly clays, as it progresses.
But the permitted exceptions will be few, very specific and invoke draconian penalties if infringed.
I expect that the ban on lead for game shooting and a parallel ban for deer will be amongst the first wave.
That phase can probably be introduced without major upheaval, but as viable alternatives come onto the market virtually all other users will be forced to abandon lead over a fairly short time frame.
Interesting times!
If you think about how and why you would ban lead ammo, particularly the “how“ rather than the “why” a lot of what’s being going on makes sense, we’ve lost, leads going and soon.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes, because its an Olympic sport and the cost of compensating owners will be far higher than for just about anything else if theres no viable alternative.

Um.

You do realise our pistol shooters can’t practice at home don’t you?

Olympic sport or not, they will ignore the practicalities.

As for compensation, how many guns are there out there that won’t shoot steel shot? They won’t be compensating anyone as ‘alternatives are available’ which is entirely my point.

 

[Liveonce]

There is a big difference between shooting bullets into game where the bullet then goes into the ground. Versus shooting on a range where the bullets are all going into a sandtrap / berm / butt or whatever you like to call where from time to time the whole lot is sifted, bullets are recovered and sent for recycling.

And on many clay ranges - especially on the continent this also happens. Admittedly not the most attractive of places, and not green and pleasant woodland like many sporting layouts.

And as for not using lead on game, well it already happens on the foreshore and most Wildfowling clubs strictly enforce lead free, and if you break the rules you are kicked out.

1) likely ok if an indoor range possible not so acceptable on an outdoor range.

2) was done at Greenwich for the 2012 olympics, easy for trap disciplines far from easy for FITAS or English Sporting
layouts.

3) the culture of the two types of shooing are very different, wildfowling, relatively few shots, from mainly large gauge guns, with 3” or 3.1/2“ chambers and most likely semi autos firing HP steel shot.
By contrast game shooting can be a many shots from a big mix of fine English side by side guns, over and under, 12ga, 16ga, 20ga, 28ga and even .410. Driven shoots and walked up shoots. Few will want to put HP steel loads through such lighter guns. It will change the nature and the appeal of game shooting, for the better? Only time will tell.

 

[Liveonce]

I think you’re correct, the initial ban will be for game, starting with deer and fowl and will be expanded to included target shooting, particularly clays, as it progresses.
But the permitted exceptions will be few, very specific and invoke draconian penalties if infringed.
I expect that the ban on lead for game shooting and a parallel ban for deer will be amongst the first wave of restrictions.
That phase can probably be introduced without major upheaval, but as viable alternatives come onto the market virtually all other users will be forced to abandon lead over a fairly short time frame.
Interesting times!

Very optimistic indeed. The sport is heading for a period of decline, can you see George Digweed winning another world title using steel when others are competing with lead?

 

[Dunwaters]

Um.

You do realise our pistol shooters can’t practice at home don’t you?

Olympic sport or not, they will ignore the practicalities.

As for compensation, how many guns are there out there that won’t shoot steel shot? They won’t be compensating anyone as ‘alternatives are available’ which is entirely my point.

Most modern 2 3/4” guns choked to 1/2 or less can handle standard lead loads with no problem, the guns that can’t handle steel can handle bismuth, so there are alternatives but they’re costly for older game guns.
As for the .22’s theres an exemption planned and a further exemption planned for range use.
This is going to be a multi phased project, but I can’t see any way to prevent it going ahead, we’ve been fighting for 30 years, the only thing left to argue is the details of the transition.

 

[25 Sharps]

Yes, because its an Olympic sport and the cost of compensating owners will be far higher than for just about anything else if theres no viable alternative.

Most modern 2 3/4” guns choked to 1/2 or less can handle standard lead loads with no problem, the guns that can’t handle steel can handle bismuth, so there are alternatives but they’re costly for older game guns.
As for the .22’s theres an exemption planned and a further exemption planned for range use.
This is going to be a multi phased project, but I can’t see any way to prevent it going ahead, we’ve been fighting for 30 years, the only thing left to argue is the details of the transition.

So that just leaves all the older guns and tight choked game guns. As for bismuth what about all of the pest controllers out there who shoot big bags of pigeons?

Can you link the source you have for the planned exemptions for .22? Seems incredible when we’re only 1 year into the 2 year consultation that they already know what they plan to do.

 

[Dunwaters]

Very optimistic indeed. The sport is heading for a period of decline, can you see George Digweed winning another world title using steel when others are competing with lead?

No I can’t, but I can’t see why George would be expected to compete under a handicap that didn’t apply to all competitors.
Mind you, if I was shooting against George I’d be campaigning to have ALL the shot taken out of his ammo.
I still couldn’t beat him.

 

[Liveonce]

Most modern 2 3/4” guns choked to 1/2 or less can handle standard lead loads with no problem, the guns that can’t handle steel can handle bismuth, so there are alternatives but they’re costly for older game guns.
As for the .22’s theres an exemption planned and a further exemption planned for range use.
This is going to be a multi phased project, but I can’t see any way to prevent it going ahead, we’ve been fighting for 30 years, the only thing left to argue is the details of the transition.

With bismuth cartridges between what £1,400 and £1,800 a thousands that is really going to sort the problem out.

 

[Liveonce]

No I can’t, but I can’t see why George would be expected to compete under a handicap that didn’t apply to all competitors.
Mind you, if I was shooting against George I’d be campaigning to have ALL the shot taken out of his ammo.
I still couldn’t beat him.

where will he practice when in the U.K. it will be illegal to use lead.

 

[25 Sharps]

There is a big difference between shooting bullets into game where the bullet then goes into the ground. Versus shooting on a range where the bullets are all going into a sandtrap / berm / butt or whatever you like to call where from time to time the whole lot is sifted, bullets are recovered and sent for recycling.

And on many clay ranges - especially on the continent this also happens. Admittedly not the most attractive of places, and not green and pleasant woodland like many sporting layouts.

And as for not using lead on game, well it already happens on the foreshore and most Wildfowling clubs strictly enforce lead free, and if you break the rules you are kicked out.

In Switzerland clubs are closing because of the costs of the new bullet traps required.

You are clearly not a target shooter or someone very active in pest control so you’re happy to pull the ladder up.

 

[25 Sharps]

No I can’t, but I can’t see why George would be expected to compete under a handicap that didn’t apply to all competitors.
Mind you, if I was shooting against George I’d be campaigning to have ALL the shot taken out of his ammo.
I still couldn’t beat him.

It’s not just about competing it’s about being able to practice!

 

[Liveonce]

I will except we ban lead from shooting for the health of the public when the government first ban smoking, given they are so concerned about are health.