Whitefront
Well-Known Member
No logical reason why UK raptors would react differently to the same species in Europe. See references 21, 26 and 31 at end of this briefing:
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Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
Whitefront
Well-Known Member
650 murders a year in UK. So, if somebody decided to murder a dozen more people, it doesn't count... ?
We don't need to use lead ammo for hunting. Not anymore. I don't.
We don't need to use lead ammo for hunting. Not anymore. I don't.
however they would be an accurate factorial count.
“Research estimates suggest that between 30-60,00022 and 50-100,0001 birds are likely to perish”
if I was anti lead I would estimate high, but if I was pro lead I would estimate low, you can estimate to suite your agenda.
re don’t need to use lead ammo for hunting, indeed in large calibre centre fire rifles that is doable, but tell me how when I shoot a rabbit for my own use, with my .17hornet or .22lr using cci segmented ammo and then retrieve said rabbit that I am putting any living creature at risk of lead poisoning other than myself. A choice I should be free to make just as somebody who smokes has that choice.
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Whitefront
Well-Known Member
Agreed, birds don't have death certificates. Hence scientists make estimates.
corrected it for you
Whitefront
Well-Known Member
And what would the GWCT's agenda be?
As I understand it,
ensure that game shooting remains viable, which requires a move to non toxic shot.
wild justice look to have a low opinion of them
GWCT can’t read their own advice, it seems – Wild Justice
wildjustice.org.uk
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No one is going to argue lead is not toxic (most things are toxic if enough is ingested, including copper). But we should be basing a UK ban on UK data, we don’t have the same species as America, condors are not an issue for us.
If so many raptors are dying from lead shot game why are we not finding them in numbers?
Why has there been a huge surge in buzzard and red kite numbers in the last 20-30 years? Both birds are principally scavengers, more so than other common UK raptors, if lead shot carrion was of any consequence to populations they would not be growing.
Outside of the food chain, wetlands, and probably big game shoots, would a lead ban really be of benefit? Certainly a blanket ban on all environments for target and clays, for vermin and foxes would seem totally disproportionate, yet that is exactly what we are facing!
Taken from the same paper, although it deals almost entirely with wildfowl.No logical reason why UK raptors would react differently to the same species in Europe. See references 21, 26 and 31 at end of this briefing:
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“There is also a lack of UK-based studies providing data to determine if population-level impacts are occurring”
There is no point in comparing the condor to UK raptors.
All this really is pointing at lead shot, in game. So why are we facing a ban for lead bullets in non food items and even in target backstops?
Saving obscene large bag game days by throwing other shooting sports under the bus ……
What quarry species do you shoot out of interest?
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I’ll turn your question around.
We know that lead impacts raptors in other countries and in captivity, what evidence do you have that wild raptors in the UK are not affected by it?
You’re right about the surge in numbers, 30 years ago we had no buzzards, nowadays the suckers are everywhere and lets not deny that part of that increase is down to far fewer being killed, I’ve found 2 dead buzzards since Christmas, plus curlew,Brent goose and a mute swan besides, short of a post-mortem we’ll never know what happened to them but dead birds are definitely out there if you go looking.
I don’t know whether the ban will achieve anything concrete, probably very little at best but its coming, its EU policy and shooting is a soft target, we’ve no friends at court, we’re at the end of the road.
Thats just my assessment of where we stand, I don’t like it particularly but I’ll see where it impacts me and adapt accordingly.
Its that or give up and I won’t give up as long as theres viable ammunition available.
But as was pointed out above the UK is no longer part of the EU.
Yes, less raptors are being killed but if lead poisoning was an issue at population level then numbers would not be increasing…..
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
I bloody wish!
I shoot multiples every year, but over the last few years i tend to shoot reds in 2’s and 3’s which is far more manageable, unless i have help on hand.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
More pages and pages of the same jibber jabber 
Now is the time to get your head around it, sort your selves out and get on with it.
It will happen, there is nothing we or anyone can do about it so prepare yourselves the best you can and crack on.
Now is the time to get your head around it, sort your selves out and get on with it.
It will happen, there is nothing we or anyone can do about it so prepare yourselves the best you can and crack on.
Lee, what are your not understanding?More pages and pages of the same jibber jabber
Now is the time to get your head around it, sort your selves out and get on with it.
It will happen, there is nothing we or anyone can do about it so prepare yourselves the best you can and crack on.
I have 4 loads developed for shooting deer with lead free.
I can shoot steel for pigeons and clays and know what works in my guns pattern wise and for killing.
I cannot shoot lead free for target at Bisley for the majority of ranges and disciplines we shoot, it is not allowed on MOD ranges for civilian use.
I cannot shoot lead free at my local gallery club due to the back stop arrangement not being suitable, and you find me non expanding .357 ammunition or bullets in the uk.
I cannot shoot lead free in .22 RF as the only alternatives available don’t shoot for toffee.
I cannot shoot lead free in my .410 for rats, something I do regularly, as no alternatives are available.
I cannot shoot lead free in my air rifle as the alternatives available don’t shoot for toffee.
You keep saying ‘prepare yourselves’ or ‘sort yourselves out and get on with it’ but if there is no viable alternative how do you suggest we prepare ourselves? Simply give up those areas of our hobby where there are no suitable alternatives?
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“I can shoot steel for pigeons and clays and know what works in my guns pattern wise and for killing.”
indeed we can, for pigeon biodegradable wads are required, then for clays some grounds do not allow steel shot, but that will probably have to change if they are to have a future if lead was banned.
The next issue for clays is a lot of grounds only allow fibre wads, so they would then need to also use biodegradable plastic wads. Not all of these are so far created equal, some like fibre wads degrade very quickly other let’s just say for now, no where near as quick, will they be acceptable to the land owner. Then for clays and possibly pigeons we have the cost issue.
The risk is if you leave lead shot or steel shot in single use plastic available to buy and use then temptation will be for it to be used where it should not.
indeed we can, for pigeon biodegradable wads are required, then for clays some grounds do not allow steel shot, but that will probably have to change if they are to have a future if lead was banned.
The next issue for clays is a lot of grounds only allow fibre wads, so they would then need to also use biodegradable plastic wads. Not all of these are so far created equal, some like fibre wads degrade very quickly other let’s just say for now, no where near as quick, will they be acceptable to the land owner. Then for clays and possibly pigeons we have the cost issue.
The risk is if you leave lead shot or steel shot in single use plastic available to buy and use then temptation will be for it to be used where it should not.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
What the heck has your membership of the EU got to do with lead ingestion and toxicity?
The effects of lead poisoning don’t just suddenly manifest themselves or vanish as birds cross the midpoint of the channel.
Its totally reasonable to deduce that similar birds will display similar symptoms and effects from exposure to the same element regardless of geography.
You‘re also still bound by the Birds Directive, so you’re required to protect them.
The argument that every single state, county and parish is geographically unique and that the effects of a universally acknowledged toxin has to be proved in each and every case is a pretty poor one.
We tried it, it didn’t go well.
My point about Brexit is we should be able to make our own rules, we are not bound by the EU’s rules.
As for the Birds Directive, where does it state lead rifle bullets cannot be used?
Other than specific RAMSAR sites where does it restrict the use of lead ammunition?
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