Lead ammunition - BASC statement in response to RSPB and WWT open letter

[countrryboy]

The other way to look at this is by shooters trying to embrace it, thus trying to help show shooters in a better light by doing all they can to help the environment

There may well be other deposits of lead caused in for larger numbers than shooters, but largely the public don't care. Yet if you are a shooter you don't care for the environment, animals or nature (we all know this isn't true)

This looks like it's coming and controlling the narrative is more important than ever i.e. we arent shooting lead due to impacts potential, perceived or actual on the environment, I feel for those that have shotguns/firearms that won't cope at the moment but I'm sure something will.come along that works for you

If not and all is lost then might as well give up now and pass on the permissions (tongue in cheek)

I do agree with wot u have said and it would be worthwhile if u were dealing with sane and rational people.

But ur not, so thats why i also agre with wot kes said about it being naive, does anyone honestly think any of this is driven by a worry about the publics health? ( Is the NHS struggling to cope with al the illnesses caused by lead shot ingestion?. But smoking, drinking and being morbidly obese is perfectly fine by HSE?)
It has been driven purely and simply by antis as a means to attack shooting.
And basc has blindly walked/blundered into the trap and dragged other orgs with them.

Yes at some point this might have happened down the line but basc has made every other decision real simple for fsa, hse by condemming it 1st, they now have nothing to lose by banning it and know they're will be no fights or appeals ( not that basc ever do that anyway) so not going to cost them any bad PR or legal fees, hold ups, its a no brainer for them.
Claim a big environmental victory with something so small u'll never notice the difference and ignoring the bigger polluters whist only upsetting a minority u don't care about anyway. its a win win.

I used to defend basc but for me the lead shot fiasco was the last straw, and not even the fact they said wot they did but the way they came out and done it.
Just a complete incompetent shambles, u'd think with such a big announcement and massive change in policy ( No science no change) and something that has massive implications for the gun and ammo companies they would atleast have consulted them before hand and asked a few questions.
Can it be done in the timescale? Wot about 22's, airguns, 410's etc? Wot about non plastic boidegradable wads.
is anyone else going to keep to bascs 5 yr timetable? Wots to stop someone accelerating it?
As is the case here, if HSE say it has to be banned in 18 months. Where does that leave basc's timely roll out??
They have opened the door and started the car rolling only to discover there not in control of it in any way shape or form.
Which is the very oppisate of wot they tried to do

i always hoped basc do wot they claim behind the scenes and gave them the benefit of the doubt, but if they handle such a major change of direction in such an incompetent way wot are they doing with day to day decisions?
Now i just think there like any other big org/civil service/council project a bunch of folk not really with much clue, talk enough of a game but deliver very little and know there job is safe no matter wot and completely out of touch with who they were set up to support
Its the lack of foresight and organisation that really was the final straw for me.
As soon as that announcement was made it was open season of lead as how can basc possibly even try to defend it, there position is totally untenable so every other report is totally predicatable

its a bit like electric cars yes probably a good idea to encourage folk to go that way but really 10ish years too early for the technology to really allow it, so really 10 years to early to be rolling out the volauntry bans.

The general public really doesnt care about wether we shoot with lead or not, and it would not matter wot we shot birds or deer with the vast % will simply never buy game or venision to eat.
And only going to get worse when u see the amount of BS plastered all over tv about the benefits of vegan 'meat'

As has been said before the antis have already given up the lead fight, they have already won it, but they won't be resting on the victory but looking for the next achilles heel/weak link they can target.
As soon as lead shot ban in they will go straight onto plastics, then just keep targeting the next easiest thing, they already target ferry companies bringing in game eggs/chicks

They have 1 or 2 simple aims, stop all shooting of animals with guns, even if u shot them with fairy dust, and stop all private gun ownership.
In the UK now being so urban orientated and withall this social media BS campaigns they are just going to keep targeting the next weakest link.

Have any studies been done about how steel, copper, bismuth etc will react in our bodies over time? Or any environmental impacts of them lying about the environment?
I know copper is not great for a lot of plants, will steel have any impact in farm machinery? ( baring in mind the pellet sizes will be increasing. Fine if ur shooting with 6's or 7's but many of the higher bird shoots ur using 3's and 4's, so thats u essentailally shooting a fox load size pellet.
Even the impact on beaters, on a pheasant shoot everyone will have felt the 'lead rain' really wouldnae fancy getting a BB or 1 in the eye or even on the lug hole on a cold frosty day

 

[kes]

Appreciate your opinion, however from what I've seen with your posts whenever basc is mentioned your clearly biased so with respect I'll keep my "naive" view

As I also appreciate yours.
My criticisms of BASC can be traced directly to failings on their part - there have been plenty if you are prepared to look but simply denying anyone's view because they have bothered to trace recent BASC history is naïve.
Feel free to check anything I have said - like John Swift denied and then followed, no evidence - no change. the 'difficulty with the past CEO and so on. I dont make this up this has really happened - ignore it at your and shootings peril but I agree you are not to be led in your opinions by any person or organisation.

 

[enfieldspares]

What further needs to be taken on by those that claim to be a "voice for shooting" is the possible knock on effect on reloading and the possession or value of such tools.

1) At a best case things may remain unchanged and stay the same for pistol, rifle, shotgun reloading. Save that some powder makers will not bother to produce data for non-lead bulleted cartridges or non-lead shot shotshells. For sure the old loading manuals will become redundant. I doubt also that such data will be made available for discontinued powders such as H414 and Etc.. The Lyman "Cast Bullets Handbook", RCBS #10 Manual and Etc, will be fit only for levelling the short leg on a "wonky" table.

2) Certainly moulds, sizing dies, lubrisizer machines, lead melting furnaces, bullet lubricant "sticks", bullet swaging equipment for home production of lead bullets and lead shot trickler machines to make lead shot by a short drop may become redundant and unsaleable. If you can no longer legally use such what is the value of equipment that has absolutely no use but to make bullets of lead of containing lead?

3) Reloading may be banned maybe on the belief that "some shooters are circumventing the ban by "making their own bullets or shot" and then "loading their own ammunition with lead bullets or lead shot" and I fear that there WILL be calls for this from the usual suspects that are opposed to shooting.

So I hope that input needs NOW to be made about compensation for such things and that compensation must be from the public purse as with the handgun ban in 1996.

I am not a member of BASC but of the CPSA. Those who are members of BASC and Etc, will, I hope ask the question of those organisations as I will be doing of CPSA as to what input they will make regarding home reloading. Indeed I have emailed CPSA just now with a "cut and paste" of the above and the addition of this at the end of that email:

"I also ask that CPSA look at the law in New Zealand with their "Fish and Game" Authority and ask if CPSA will look at seeing if the rules there on where lead shot may or may not be used for live quarry shooting might be a suitable "cut and paste" for where lead shot may or may not be used for clay target shooting? If you need a link to the New Zealand legislation please contact me back in addition to your response to this initial email."

 

[Liveonce]

Not sure the CPSA are even awake to what‘s proposed a post was made to their Facebook regarding the HSE proposal it was removed within minutes, then this was posted in protest to the HSE post being removed and that was also removed in minutes.
So clearly it looks like they don’t like members posting on Facebook.

edit to add nothing on their website either.

 

[StephenToast]

I'm not a massive fan of any of the shooting organisations, they all have their pro's and cons. But in their defence there is nothing any of them can do to stop a ban on lead ammunition. I am sceptical that they even have the power to influence it.

There is so much criticism of BASC who I guess are the biggest of the bunch but in reality, politically they are about as influencial as a fart in a tornado. Even with the best of the best they are bailing out a sinking ship with a thimble.

 

[Liveonce]

I'm not a massive fan of any of the shooting organisations, they all have their pro's and cons. But in their defence there is nothing any of them can do to stop a ban on lead ammunition. I am sceptical that they even have the power to influence it.

There is so much criticism of BASC who I guess are the biggest of the bunch but in reality, politically they are about as influencial as a fart in a tornado. Even with the best of the best they are bailing out a sinking ship with a thimble.

possibly so, but shooting does make a contribution to the economy of the country and creates jobs, plus we can vote.

So a coordinated response from the shooting organisation (CPSA, BASC, NRA, NSRA etc) is what is need now, we won’t stop a lead ban but possibly we can at least get a compromise like New Zealand did.

 

[T.eddie]

I do agree with wot u have said and it would be worthwhile if u were dealing with sane and rational people.

But ur not, so thats why i also agre with wot kes said about it being naive, does anyone honestly think any of this is driven by a worry about the publics health? ( Is the NHS struggling to cope with al the illnesses caused by lead shot ingestion?. But smoking, drinking and being morbidly obese is perfectly fine by HSE?)
It has been driven purely and simply by antis as a means to attack shooting.
And basc has blindly walked/blundered into the trap and dragged other orgs with them.

Yes at some point this might have happened down the line but basc has made every other decision real simple for fsa, hse by condemming it 1st, they now have nothing to lose by banning it and know they're will be no fights or appeals ( not that basc ever do that anyway) so not going to cost them any bad PR or legal fees, hold ups, its a no brainer for them.
Claim a big environmental victory with something so small u'll never notice the difference and ignoring the bigger polluters whist only upsetting a minority u don't care about anyway. its a win win.

I used to defend basc but for me the lead shot fiasco was the last straw, and not even the fact they said wot they did but the way they came out and done it.
Just a complete incompetent shambles, u'd think with such a big announcement and massive change in policy ( No science no change) and something that has massive implications for the gun and ammo companies they would atleast have consulted them before hand and asked a few questions.
Can it be done in the timescale? Wot about 22's, airguns, 410's etc? Wot about non plastic boidegradable wads.
is anyone else going to keep to bascs 5 yr timetable? Wots to stop someone accelerating it?
As is the case here, if HSE say it has to be banned in 18 months. Where does that leave basc's timely roll out??
They have opened the door and started the car rolling only to discover there not in control of it in any way shape or form.
Which is the very oppisate of wot they tried to do

i always hoped basc do wot they claim behind the scenes and gave them the benefit of the doubt, but if they handle such a major change of direction in such an incompetent way wot are they doing with day to day decisions?
Now i just think there like any other big org/civil service/council project a bunch of folk not really with much clue, talk enough of a game but deliver very little and know there job is safe no matter wot and completely out of touch with who they were set up to support
Its the lack of foresight and organisation that really was the final straw for me.
As soon as that announcement was made it was open season of lead as how can basc possibly even try to defend it, there position is totally untenable so every other report is totally predicatable

its a bit like electric cars yes probably a good idea to encourage folk to go that way but really 10ish years too early for the technology to really allow it, so really 10 years to early to be rolling out the volauntry bans.

The general public really doesnt care about wether we shoot with lead or not, and it would not matter wot we shot birds or deer with the vast % will simply never buy game or venision to eat.
And only going to get worse when u see the amount of BS plastered all over tv about the benefits of vegan 'meat'

As has been said before the antis have already given up the lead fight, they have already won it, but they won't be resting on the victory but looking for the next achilles heel/weak link they can target.
As soon as lead shot ban in they will go straight onto plastics, then just keep targeting the next easiest thing, they already target ferry companies bringing in game eggs/chicks

They have 1 or 2 simple aims, stop all shooting of animals with guns, even if u shot them with fairy dust, and stop all private gun ownership.
In the UK now being so urban orientated and withall this social media BS campaigns they are just going to keep targeting the next weakest link.

Have any studies been done about how steel, copper, bismuth etc will react in our bodies over time? Or any environmental impacts of them lying about the environment?
I know copper is not great for a lot of plants, will steel have any impact in farm machinery? ( baring in mind the pellet sizes will be increasing. Fine if ur shooting with 6's or 7's but many of the higher bird shoots ur using 3's and 4's, so thats u essentailally shooting a fox load size pellet.
Even the impact on beaters, on a pheasant shoot everyone will have felt the 'lead rain' really wouldnae fancy getting a BB or 1 in the eye or even on the lug hole on a cold frosty day

As I also appreciate yours.
My criticisms of BASC can be traced directly to failings on their part - there have been plenty if you are prepared to look but simply denying anyone's view because they have bothered to trace recent BASC history is naïve.
Feel free to check anything I have said - like John Swift denied and then followed, no evidence - no change. the 'difficulty with the past CEO and so on. I dont make this up this has really happened - ignore it at your and shootings peril but I agree you are not to be led in your opinions by any person or organisation.

I know basc has failed at times, everything fails at times however, as someone that's has not long been in the shooting world, I intend to shoot for as long as I can, and in this day and age it means you have to justify why you are doing it otherwise it will be banned. If potentially improving the environment by the removal of lead shot is what it takes then so be it. The market will not fall flat and manufactures will eventually come through with new methods to make better rounds for all aspects of shooting, as with the focus on "green agendas" you can be sure things like this will be commonplace around the globe.

I also don't think this is a basc issue, there a many shooting orgs involved has basc been vocal, yes have they also tried to get more of the fence sitters / government participants involved, in my opinion yes. I get newsletters from multiple orgs and it is usually basc that outlines how they have interacted or tried to with government bodies

 

[hendrix's rifle]

No shooting organisation is promoting a ban on lead, and nor is any promoting a voluntary phasing out of lead for anything but live quarry shotgun shooting. Certainly not for target shooting, where the lead is generally deposited in a specific area, rather than the wider environment. As for ammo used for deer, stalkers are already changing of their own accord.

Of course attacks on shooting will not stop if lead is banned. Whoever imagined they would? But we can only fight on so many fronts at once, and lead from shotguns used on live quarry is an an avoidable self-inflicted injury that aids our enemies. Why are we giving them (lead) ammunition to fire at us? It destroys our environmental credentials.

The only way we could feasibly argue for exemptions for certain types of firearms/calibres/bores is if we can show that we have obviated the main problem. And even then, we will have a struggle.

If you haven't already, take a look at what was released a couple days ago. Time for you to eat your own words mate we're all ****ed if we do any more than stalking... Air guns, rimfire, target or anything else.

 

[Liveonce]

Just completed the call for evidence, HSE are asking questions you would have thought they had done their homework on and already had reasonable data for, by doing research with for example the ammunition and cartridge manufactures and importers. Then they could have sent a survey out direct to every clay ground and rifle club.

Anyway I am now an elite athlete after all many years ago I won a club cup, shows again how little they know about how the sport operates.

looks like they had an agenda before they even did the report.

But possibly the door is open for a New Zealand type compromise.

 

[countrryboy]

The massive problem u have with the NZ compromise is the culture and government ( atleast in the past) NZ is/was quite rural orientated and is still quite common sense in a lot of its laws.
And in the culture hunting is still a very big part of it, even in the middle of a massive city like auckland u are never be that far away from some free DoC hunting sites and a large % will fish.
I don't know why but for some reason the uk has went completely bonkers when it comes to anti hunting, when these americains are getting trolled and death threats for shooting cricil/fred or which ever other named animal they have shot most of the hate is coming from the uk.

In UK and the whole problem with this apeasement approach is, it only works with sane people who are also prepared to compromise slightly, a bit of give and take.
All we are doing is giving
The pressure groups driving these agendas dont give a flying f''k about lead contamination in game ( as they would never eat it anyway, bet they would be entirely happy if it killed every shooter) it is purely a weapon/tool to hinder fields sports and gun ownership in general.
U simply can't reason or appease people like that and by trying all ur doing is giving things away with absolutely nothing in return and no guarantees either.

Basc's decision has vastly accelerated the demise of lead and at a stage where the alternatives are not really 100% viable yet for much of the style of shooting done in uk, even for 12g and cf rifles which are the closest, and for various other sports not anywhere near viable.
They have been completlely flung under the bus by basc's complete lack of thought, they should have encouraged a NZ compromise when they 1st came up with it.
Its the complete lack of any joined up thinking scares me most with basc, they havn't a clue and have set themselves up as the 'voice'
They should of continued fighting for another 5-10 years, atleast if the antis are focusing on that there not targeting anything else.

Yes lead may be classed as toxic, but in its solid metal state is really very stable.
How many thousand people will still get there drinking water throu lead pipes in UK?? A far bigger health risk than ingesting lead shot ever will be
Wot does the HSE say about that?? Do they even realise?
and even if u accept lead can be toxic where do u draw the line, drinking too much water can actually kill u, more folk will die of that each year than lead.
Almost everything we do or eat if taken too far can damage our health, just about managing risk and moderation.
In the grand scheme of modern life eating lead shot game is a tiny tiny risk

Yes the demise may well of been envitable , but the amount of BS about it is also massive.
if supermarkets/ game dealers thought that lead shot in game was the limiting factor in folk buying it it would be very easy to pay a bonus for birds shot with non toxic shot, plenty of big shoots supply cartridges now so would be relatively simple.
If the demand was there a fw big shoots would of been right in there supplying thousands of non toxic shot birds a week, but even with non toxic the demand or price will not be there for birds in feather ( just the same with deer, prics will not shoot up overnight when all killed by copper)
As for supermarkets some can't even guarantee the meat is coming form the right breed of animal so really can't see how some lead is making and difference.
I'd rather eat a badly shot pheasant than some of the factory reared and imported muck supermarkets sell as meat, a lot is imported from africa and south america often to be made into pies, i wouldn't like to guess wot they have fed on.

As i've said it not so much the decision but the arrogance that doing wot they done they thought they could control it when in fact all they have done is disconnect the brakes and throw the steering wheel out the window.
As is becoming more and more apparent in modern society/government/civil service, basc or any other org have absolutley no influence wot so ever, even when they have valid science on their side the results go against them time and time again, if they honestly can't see that it shows how out of touch they really are. I doubt a whole season at Hatton park would change that
As they have set the ball rolling how can they possibly defend the use of lead for target shooting, airguns, 410's or even delay it if HSE want to ban it by next season.
They haven't a leg to stand on.
Wot really worries me is, i'm not that clever, esp with this sort of stuff but if someone as daft as me can see how the hell can these well educated folk on very good money not see it???
It really is not rocket science

Not just basc but it really is the death by 1 thousand cuts, just at moment some big issues and not 1 cheap out of anyone
Trophy hunting ban
Firearms licensing/ doctors reports etc
Many airlines refusing to fly firearms out from uk, purely down to useless staff/organisation uk side
ferry companies pressured about transporting gam birds/egg
licensing shoots/grouse moors , scotland
blue hare shooting ban
many corvids of GL + pressure on the GL every year now
hunting laws change in scot

Even the law about animal sentinance could easily be changed/ammened in the future to really affect us.
Same with the trophy ban, even on here most won't consider themselves as trophy hunters, but wot is a trophy? Any piece of antler, these laws could change in time and really screw us
And thats just of the top of my head.
Basc should have firm statements on all the above and more, they set themselves up as the voice for once should start living up to it.

 

[Kersnow]

The CPSA folk at the Harrogate show very surprisingly not committal on this subject today.

Clay shots will suffer too as game shots. Mind you if it means the end of extreme pheasants l wont be bothered

 

[homer]

It’s about sale of game meat for human consumption.
If what you just shot is not to be “sold” for human consumption fear not and tell BASC they are barking at the wrong tree.
Lead shot is returning an element back to the soil (recycling)
Shooting plaswads is littering same as discarding empty cartridges in the field or hedge and not really acceptable.
Commercial game shooting has an image problem in modern society but BASC is going to throw the baby out with the bath water in seeking to appease commercial shooting.
Get real BASC brexit divorced the U.K. from blindly following European legislation.
As for copper bullets for deer, any meat premium seems to have melted away like early morning summer mist....appeasing game dealers is rarely a rewarding experience. So who is it who wants no lead in shooting because Joe public really has no interest in whether a pheasant died from being shot with steel or lead pellets.

Exactly. In my opinion, the sales of game/venison wont improve at all when/if we change to non lead.
Id say most people that dont buy game/venison, dont buy it because it has been shot. They're not suddenly going to change their mind because it's been shot with something different!
And as for being a risk to health eating lead shot game, just look at our last generation of folks that lived after the war, how many of them lived on rabbits, game, pigeons etc that were all shot with lead, even the deer were shot with shotguns back then, these people were eating shot game more times in a week than most people eat in a year now.
Id be more than happy to feed my children lead shot game rather than some of the other crap thats on our supermarket shelves!
Rant over

 

[Whitefront]

If you haven't already, take a look at what was released a couple days ago. Time for you to eat your own words mate we're all ****ed if we do any more than stalking... Air guns, rimfire, target or anything else.

What was released was pretty much was pretty much what was expected. The organisations (none of whom were promoting a legal ban) have been predicting it for two or three years. Much the same as the EU version - again, just as the orgs predicted. We need to ensure that the future of shooting is delinked from lead - because lead has no future.

The obvious rationale of a voluntary transfer was to mitigate the impact of a legal ban on shooting when it came in, not least by giving a commercial incentive to the manufacturers to innovate. I have used steel for wildfowling for 20 years, and I have used it for game (with ecowads) for nearly three years now. The stuff works. The leadites who (wrongly) claim it is inhumane etc are doing the future of shooting no good.

I have also used Fox Classic Hunter factory ammunition (copper/zinc) for all my stalking for two years. Again, it works - really well, in fact. I am well stocked up with Eley Pro Eco Wad and Fox. I am prepared for a non-lead future, thanks in part to the prescience of the main shooting orgs. Whether exemptions can be obtained for muzzleaders, rimfire etc may have been compromised by the antics of the hard-core leadites. I do hope not.

In my view, those who stuck their head in the sand need to eat their words. All sensible shooters knew this legal clampdown on lead was coming in the near future; many quietly got their act together.

 

[kes]

My final comment on this, given whitefronts dismissal of all concerns about how we got here is this:-

If lead is so toxic why are the main sources of lead in available forms doubling their production as lead becomes more and more utilised in essential industries ?
The pollution from lead is mainly in dust in past emissions from petrol in groundwater falling on polluted sites, run-off from galena deposits (groundwater). Why is there no commensurate knee jerk about those much greater forms of pollution ?
We are worried about lead shot when, in truth, lead will continue to exist in e.g. water at levels not hitherto seen in the environment but shooting must stop the use of lead.
Did I actually see the phrase 'no evidence-no change'. Before replying to this please comment upon the RELATIVE levels of pollution from lead likely to be ingested/consumed by raptors and humans including foods beer and water..
Because it might seem logical to remove all pollutants, that must be accompanied by 'from all sources' starting with the most severe.
Is That happening ?
Do I really need to ask the question ?
No shooting org has a strategy and they merely shamble from one debacle to the next, whilst those who trust them follow blindly.
Not me - not now, not ever.

No further comment - no point.

 

[Robs]

Whitefront your comments are either naive or trying to provoke. You say "many quietly got their act together". How can target shooters, airgunners and muzzleloaders get their acts together. There are no alternatives in these areas and the organisations know this. Where do I go as a .22LR prone rifle shooter go for non-lead? Please get the point there is no alternative. The discipline will cease to exist and yet there is no issue to either wildlife or humans. As an old army ruger shooter, where do I source alternatives to lead. There are so many holes to fill that do not have answers and dismissive comments just insult those who have a real problem to solve.

 

[Kersnow]

Whitefront your comments are either naive or trying to provoke. You say "many quietly got their act together". How can target shooters, airgunners and muzzleloaders get their acts together. There are no alternatives in these areas and the organisations know this. Where do I go as a .22LR prone rifle shooter go for non-lead? Please get the point there is no alternative. The discipline will cease to exist and yet there is no issue to either wildlife or humans. As an old army ruger shooter, where do I source alternatives to lead. There are so many holes to fill that do not have answers and dismissive comments just insult those who have a real problem to solve.

Saw some copper 22 long rifle for sale at the Northern Shooting show at the week end £9 per 100

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Saw some copper 22 long rifle for sale at the Northern Shooting show at the week end £9 per 100

Subsonic?

 

[Benelli m2]

I have 8 thousand rounds of .25 hades and hybrids don't think it will affect me for a good few years

 

[Kersnow]

Subsonic?

Sorry no idea, was on price list by caliber on a stall

 

[Pedro]

Bar the shouting (and there's 16 pages worth here) lead is dead in the UK sooner or later. Be it right or be it wrong, nothing's going to change that.

I, for one have a pile of the stuff in factory ammo (not a lot), home made ammo (a fair bit), bullets (a fair bit more) and in shotgun cartridges (bloody piles). I think it'll be a good policy to reduce my holdings. Certainly I'm going to be a bit circumspect in buying any more, except perhaps for short term use.