Winchester .204 brass major issue with loose primer pockets on first reloads

[Cyres]

I have been using Remington and Winchester 204 brass for years and never had any problems.

My standard load was 39 BK and Rel 10x but since 39 BK have become unavailable I had to develop a new load.

After much testing my new load is 35 Berger 31.2 BLC 2 with Winchester/Remington case/ Rem 7.5 primer at 2.250 COL

Excellent load fast and accurate. There are no pressure signs and testing last summer was done at near 30 c!

Last year I purchased a bag of 100 Winchester .204 from Reloading Solutions along with a bag of Nosler brass and 5 more boxs of 35 grn Bergers.
I used the new Winchester cases and re preped cases as per normal.

On priming with a Lee primer it was clear that there was a huge issue with the primer pockets. Some no resistance at all and the primer fell out other were minimal resistance others were a bit better. It was clear there was a major issue so I deprimed the slack ones and reloaded only 35, 10 with CCI small rifle primers as I wished to try them as I have a good stock of them.

I did a zero check and firstly found out that of the 4 CCI primed cases 2 had pierced primers the other 2 were badly cratered so stopped the test.

Moving to the the Winchester brass with Remy 7.5s a few were fine and then problems started 3 cases went of with a large bang and the primer cases were blown out of the pockets in that on ejection the primer fell out on the 3rd I removed the bolt to extract the fired case. The heads were covered in soot and an extractor mark left on the case head.

All the loads were thrown underweight and then trickled up to 31.2 grn using an electronic balance so I am confident there is not a problem with over charged cases.

I have contacted Reloading Solutions. They have no .204 brass in stock and if I returned the bag to them they have no way of returning them to Winchester. So looks like I will have to scrap them all.

Has anybody else ever come across this issue with Winchester or any other brass?

D

 

[Lancaster]

I think that your load is on the warm side, I'm using the last of my BLC(2) 31gn with a 32gn V max, this is above book max, so the 35gns Bergers will be even warmer.
I use Rem 7.5 as well, the CCI seemed to have a thinner softer cup and experienced a couple of pierced primers years ago when working up a load so swapped to Rem and haven't had an issue since.

 

[Muir]

I agree. I don't think it is a brass issue.~ Muir

 

[Cyres]

Muir,

Thanks for your input is it possible that the brass is a tad soft and my load has just stretched the head so making the PP loose?

D

 

[Muir]

Perhaps, but I don't think so.

"Moving to the the Winchester brass with Remy 7.5s a few were fine and then problems started 3 cases went of with a large bang and the primer cases were blown out of the pockets in that on ejection the primer fell out on the 3rd I removed the bolt to extract the fired case. The heads were covered in soot and an extractor mark left on the case head."

Classis (over) pressure issues. ~Muir

 

[Cyres]

We did a ladder test and recorded the velocity and the last node was about 29.9 to 31.3 there were no pressure signs at this load but there were in slightly increased loads so it is getting close.

I put all the data through quick load and interestingly a slight increase in case capacity has quite a pronounced effect on pressures and velocity. something to think about if you are using different makes of brass and or different batches from the same manufacturer

In my situation Hornady case volume is 2.14 cm3, Nosler new 2.077 cm3

D

 

[Lancaster]

We did a ladder test and recorded the velocity and the last node was about 29.9 to 31.3 there were no pressure signs at this load but there were in slightly increased loads so it is getting close.

I put all the data through quick load and interestingly a slight increase in case capacity has quite a pronounced effect on pressures and velocity. something to think about if you are using different makes of brass and or different batches from the same manufacturer

In my situation Hornady case volume is 2.14 cm3, Nosler new 2.077 cm3

D

Not sure that is a node, seems a bit unusual to have a node that covers 1.4gn in a small capacity cartridge, looks more like a plateaux where adding more powder doesn't give any tangible benefits.

When changing brass you are changing a component so you have to work your load up again, same as you would do changing powder, bullet or, to a slightly lesser degree, primer.

 

[Cyres]

Yes you are correct appols if I used the wrong terminology there was a plateaux 30.9 to 31.275 so might be pushing the envelope so to speak.

D

 

[palo]

If the primer pockets were loose with new unfired cases then there is a problem with the brass.
I had another problem with new Winchester cases where about 30 out of 100 cases wouldn't fit into my shell holder.

 

[ChesterP]

Reaching a plateau near the top of the load ladder and not getting increased velocities does sound like over pressure...ie you're no longer getting 100% burn in the barrel but chamber pressures are high,. Had this using Vhit powders once with my 308. Left flattened primers and case ejector marks, dropped off a full grain and a half to the next node and all was well. However, loose primer pockets on unfired new brass does suggest a manufacturing defect with the brass?

 

[Blind Pugh]

What barrel length & velocity?

 

[Sharpie]

We did a ladder test and recorded the velocity and the last node was about 29.9 to 31.3 there were no pressure signs at this load but there were in slightly increased loads so it is getting close.

I put all the data through quick load and interestingly a slight increase in case capacity has quite a pronounced effect on pressures and velocity. something to think about if you are using different makes of brass and or different batches from the same manufacturer

In my situation Hornady case volume is 2.14 cm3, Nosler new 2.077 cm3

D

Sorry, but maybe you, or is it we, have misdirected yourself with QuickLOAD.
Here is a simple try with P-Max, using an assumption of 29.1 gr powder space,, 1.89 cm^3. (I.e. the actual powder space behind a seated bullet).

Not what QL might have come up with using it's case libraries and bullet libraries for example.

Measure the powder space, of your cases with a bullet seated at your chosen depth. Only takes a minute or two.

My suspicion is that you are way OTT on pressure, whether you realise it or not. Did you measure MV with a chrono whilst working up your loads, that could also give a clue that you might have maxed out already, nothing more to be gained except extreme pressure.

204 Ruger is rated by SAAMI to a MAP of 57,500 psi. P-Max predicts that you would be hitting that at about 30.1 grains of powder. Still getting 4037 fps also. Yet you are running 1.2 grains hotter even than that. Doesn't seem altogether wise.

You really do not wanting to be running even at that ragged edge, where just a 0.1gr powder variation in a small case, a calibration error of digital scales even assuming you are using adequate ones (the typical sort sold to reloaders only resolve to +/- 0.1 gr, so you can only hope to get within a 0.2gr window, on a good day) a seating depth change, a change of brass even just from batch to batch, a primer change, temperature stability of powder, etc. etc. could tip you over. Nevermind using mixed brass.

CCI 400 primers are reputed to have quite soft cups, at least by target shooters who like to stoke up their 223s etc. to beyond the usual limits, they get on better with the BR4s, so I've heard.

Your BL-C(2) must be at least four years old by now, since REACH compliance came in, so may have deteriorated if not properly stored. Unless you are heavily invested in it, I'd be looking to try something else that will continue to be available.

Of course, if brand new, never fired, cases seem to have slack primer pockets out of the box, then perhaps there is a manufacturing defect. If you really think that might be the case, well you can gauge them with a special tool, or just a couple of inexpensive pin gauges. Save wasting time and materials and would give you cause to reject the new cases.. Likewise if you insist on shooting very hot loads, gauge them before wasting any more reloading time and materials if they are already scrap.

https://www.brownells.co.uk/SWAGE-G...-Pocket-Swage-Gauge-BALLISTIC-TOOLS-100015613

Go No Go Plain Plug Gauges - Pin Gauges and Plain Plug Gauges, Plain Ring gauges and Lure Gauges



By the way, yes, a minimum spec mall primer, 0.1745", will be a zero interference fit in a maximum 0.1745" primer pocket, such are the standards. Usually the manufacturers make them more sensibly sized though. Less of a tolerancing issue with large primers. Still, if your new brass start out on the large side, it's sometimes unsurprising that it seems not to last very well.

 

[Sharpie]

Yes you are correct appols if I used the wrong terminology there was a plateaux 30.9 to 31.275 so might be pushing the envelope so to speak.

D

So you can dispense and weigh your powder to within 0.005 grains. That's mightily impressive. Care to explain how ?

 

[ChesterP]

Why? It's not adding anything to the help for Cyres calling him out on his weighing!

 

[Sharpie]

Why? It's not adding anything to the help for Cyres calling him out on his weighing!

I dunno.

He did say "

"Moving to the the Winchester brass with Remy 7.5s a few were fine and then problems started 3 cases went of with a large bang and the primer cases were blown out of the pockets in that on ejection the primer fell out on the 3rd I removed the bolt to extract the fired case. The heads were covered in soot and an extractor mark left on the case head.

All the loads were thrown underweight and then trickled up to 31.2 grn using an electronic balance so I am confident there is not a problem with over charged cases."

Honestly I have tried to give a few pointers, but surely that experience should have told him and or someone else advising, that he was doing something incredibly wrong. Despite his confidence. Yet he questions the brass. Thread title, "Winchester Brass major issue" etc.

He talks of using Remington, Nosler, Hornady and Winchester brass, I can't get a clear picture of what he's been up to.

I hope he figures out something more sensible.

 

[Cyres]

Sharpie,

Thank you very much for your considerable knowledge and input.

To clarify:

Savage Weather Warrior .204 ruger 22" 1:12 Barrel condition fine when Neil McKillop bore scoped it last summer.

Last year had to find an alternative load as issues with 39 BK and their availability. Prior to that load was 39 BK 25.2 Reloader 10x Remy 7.5 primers Col 2.250. New Winchester brass, MV 3559 fps.

Last July developed a new load with 35 Bergers and BLC-2. Tub purchased from Tunnel range Devizes 15.07.21 £50. Stored correctly in dark cool place next to my wine. New Winchester brass remy 7.5 primers col 2.250

Developed load 2/7/21 3x started at 28.6 .2 increments up to 31.9 grn BLC 2. Air temp when load developed was close to 30c !

MV recorded and best group was at 31.2grn and MV of 3915 fps.

3/8/21 did some test loads with RP brass and again 31.2 grn BLC 2 most accurate so happy days.

So since then used 200 35 gn Bergers and no issues. Either Winchester or RP brass. Lots of dead foxs.

Always used Lee powder measure and scales. Mate recommended On Balance carat scale and so Santa delivered one. Not expensive but surprisingly accurate up to 3 decimal places. So use Lee powder thrower to throw under weight charge and trickle up to correct weight using electronic balance.

So now up to date. Reload some once fired fully preped Winchester brass which was used new to develop the BLC2 load. As I stated many slack or completely loose primer pockets. Only used primed cases which felt normal when using Lee hand primer. On testing major issues with blown primers.
As I have a large stock of CCI small rifle primers I had also loaded a few to test and as I stated cratered or pierced primers as they are too soft.

So decided to load Bergers in brand new Nosler brass. Took them to mates and powder dispensed on his automatic powder dispenser. Calibrated before use and 31.2 grn BLC 2 dispensed. Loaded 35. Tested 2 days ago and very first one went bang, very tight bolt lift and blown out primer so clearly overloaded.

For info case volumes Hornady 2.14 cm3, Winchester 2.03 cm3, Nosler 2.077 cm3, RP 2.16 cm3. Once fired Hornady Superperformance 2.16 cm3

What I cannot understand is why having developed and tested a load at 30c last summer and loaded 200 rounds why suddenly has it gone massively over pressure?

I am off up to Chester P next week to get all my 204 brass annealed and will have to develop up another load for the 35 Bergers.

Thanks

D

 

[Lancaster]

A few observations, (without using google to pretend I know things that I don't).

The On Balance are ok cheap scales (I've got one), and they do display weights to .005 of a grain but, what they display, may not be what the pressure sensor is capable of accurately weighing.

If you need that level of accuracy on your charge weight you are on way too narrow a node, 0.1 gn +/1 is enough for a hunting/stalking/varmint load. If I find a node that needs finer adjustment, 1. I can do it, 2. I need a better bullet/powder combination.

Softer brass may expand more easily and obturate the seal in chamber and neck, so may require lower pressure to do this, harder brass needs more of a shove to fully obturate so cartridge volume isn't the entire answer to pressure issues.
It may only be small amounts, but that is why I advocated earlier that changing brass requires a load too be worked up, maybe not from scratch, but certainly worked up.

The once fired Winnie brass at 31.2gn may have pushed it a bit too far, hence the slack pockets.

You're spot on with the CCI being a bit soft, hence why I now only use them in the lowers pressure .222.

Reason why it has suddenly gone over pressure, well probably due to better, longer lasting brass, oh and you seemed to have loaded a hot load into a different make of brass and expected it to behave the same as other brass.
Not sure how annealing will help, sure it will uniform neck tension, but not clear how it will help in any other way?

 

[Lancaster]

Another thought, at 31.2gn you are into compressed load territory, did you load them up and check the COAL 24 hours after loading them, had it changed, i.e. grown longer than the original COAL?

 

[Cyres]

Just shaken the Winchester and Nosler case loads and they are not compressed as I can hear and feel powder moving around in the case.

D

 

[Sharpie]

The On Balance are ok cheap scales (I've got one), and they do display weights to .005 of a grain but, what they display, may not be what the pressure sensor is capable of accurately weighing.

If you need that level of accuracy on your charge weight you are on way too narrow a node, 0.1 gn +/1 is enough for a hunting/stalking/varmint load. If I find a node that needs finer adjustment, 1. I can do it, 2. I need a better bullet/powder combination.

I don't know about that scale, but if it is the typical sort of thing that resolves to +/- 1 milligram, then converts and rounds when switched to display grains, it will resolve to +/- 0.02 grains. Two decimal places, not three. Resolve to, not necessarily be accurate to. Not to 0.005. At least that's what mine do.

I find it good enough, trickling up, and hope that I'm probably somewhere in a 0.05 gr window if used meticulously, But most of the time probably within a 0.1gr window (i.e. +/- 0..5 gr) , which I think is adequate.

To have something that could display to 0.005 gr (less than 1/3 of a milligram) you have to be using an analytical lab grade scale. And worrying about individual powder kernels, or specks of ball powder.

I consider +/- 0.1 grain resolution is only "good enough for government work", and is the sort of thing that the ordinary automatic powder chuckers can seem to manage. When they are behaving. I've read enough reviews to realise that.

It's also probably the sort of range over which, if you are actually in a "node", youd hope not to see too much variation.

You're spot on with the CCI being a bit soft, hence why I now only use them in the lowers pressure .222.

Laurie Holland has explained here about the soft CCI 400s, and the alternatives, which is where I recalled that advice. He's also written plenty of articles about this for targetshooter.co.uk.

TBH I never had a problem with them in my 223 and used several thousand, but never loaded that hot, just standard book loads.

So now up to date. Reload some once fired fully preped Winchester brass which was used new to develop the BLC2 load. As I stated many slack or completely loose primer pockets. Only used primed cases which felt normal when using Lee hand primer. On testing major issues with blown primers.
As I have a large stock of CCI small rifle primers I had also loaded a few to test and as I stated cratered or pierced primers as they are too soft.

So decided to load Bergers in brand new Nosler brass. Took them to mates and powder dispensed on his automatic powder dispenser. Calibrated before use and 31.2 grn BLC 2 dispensed. Loaded 35. Tested 2 days ago and very first one went bang, very tight bolt lift and blown out primer so clearly overloaded.

Did you do the obvious, and confirm that his automatic dispenser was throwing the same charge weight as your scales used previously, before using it ? Or were you trusting that they were calibrated just the same ? If you've got any left, pull them, and weigh the charges again on your own scales to confirm.

ISTR you shot not just one, not just two, but three "bangers" in the already once fired Winchester brass before you stopped. . Were any pockets poor the first time you loaded them ? Perhaps you were only just getting away with it the first time whilst developing the BL-C/2 load.

Now you've seen the same thing with the brand new Nosler brass, this time on first go. Even though you have measured the Nosler cases as being fractionally larger than the Winchester ones.

TBH, since you are back to square one, if you can try some other suitable powder, that is available and REACH compliant, not trying to persevere with some old stuff that must have been in the distribution chain for at least four years, if not longer The cutoff date for it being allowed into the EU was June 2018. That's even if you can find some old stock from somewhere,. I'd be thinking of doing that, rather than risking damaging any more brass, or even your rifle.

For info case volumes Hornady 2.14 cm3, Winchester 2.03 cm3, Nosler 2.077 cm3, RP 2.16 cm3. Once fired Hornady Superperformance 2.16 cm3

What I cannot understand is why having developed and tested a load at 30c last summer and loaded 200 rounds why suddenly has it gone massively over pressure?

I am off up to Chester P next week to get all my 204 brass annealed and will have to develop up another load for the 35 Bergers.

Thanks

D

I meant measure the actual powder space in the case, with your bullet seated at your chosen depth. Borbal (Dr Geoffrey Kolbe) explains how, both in words, and a video. I think you are referring to the way Quickload suggests, the "case overflowing" method, which is then reliant on having an accurate model of your bullet in its library to calculate what the actual powder space might be. Try cutting to the chase and actually measuring it.

I too can't see the point in annealing the brass after just one firing. Particularly when it might have been overstressed already. I suggested checking them with a pin gauge, before only discovering that they are slack when seating expensive primers. You still might want to consider that idea.