Thoughts on BASC's new stance on Police Firearms Licensing Departments!

Pssst... I'll let you in on a secret... There isn't really a fighting fund.
There are only BASC funds, its not your money, it's THEIRS 😂
"BASC has today (11th July 2020) launched a new legal fighting fund that will make a significant contribution to promoting and protecting sustainable shooting and conservation in the UK.

The seven-figure fund will hold ring-fenced reserves that will enable the association to push forward with proactive legal initiatives to secure the future of shooting."
 
I go every year and it's usually fully subscribed. That being the case I doubt they feel the need to advertise, I'm pretty sure most in the stalking world are familiar with the Arran scheme. It's unique and I have to say that the BASC guys who I deal with on this, James, Chris (and Bob), are excellent and they come up with the goods every time.
CH
I also took advantage of the Hockwold scheme when that was running and that was also good value and know of plenty of others that have used the Arran scheme multiple times

What I find odd from the many comments on SD about BASC is that one moment there are complaints that they don't have the power to challenge the gov or police forces etc then in the same vein they are able to influence gov policy at the detriment to the shooter, not sure how it can be both ways

Our local chap has run various days for many people in his spare time from patterning shotguns and understanding chokes to testing steel as well as species identification.

Ive also used the benefit of a car discount for the Mrs which saves a fair lump on the monthly payments for her car (much more than the £85 a year I pay for member ship)
 
I travelled to my nearest garage offering a BASC discount , some 150 mile round trip and was offered a £4k discount and a £31k trade in, after photos and being checked by the garage, for my present vehicle at the time.
I went to my local garage, a 16 mile round trip and was offered a discount of £8.5k discount and £32k trade in without even looking at my vehicle.
A similar thing happened a few years ago when I decided to change from a Discovery to a Volvo. My Volvo garage that offered the BASC discount was not interested in listening about the BASC and did me a better deal without the 'help' of BASC
 
What I find odd from the many comments on SD about BASC is that one moment there are complaints that they don't have the power to challenge the gov or police forces etc then in the same vein they are able to influence gov policy at the detriment to the shooter, not sure how it can be both ways.

This is quite simply NOT the issue. I think every shooter wants an organisation whish can influence Gov Policy. In order to explain that has been achieved how would you measure it ? In days of clays for Members of Parliament ? A voluntary lead-ban, a series of 'achievements' which end up in failures for shooters like medicals where BASC's intent, laudable as it would have been, was subverted by the Police Firearms and explosives group and they didn't see it coming. Why do you think 8% of shooters have left shooting and why are BASC finally 'energised' to do something about it ? Albeit the wrong approach. Maybe its subs ?

You have to be credible as an organisation to influence anyone and that means being right all the time, also pragmatic when necessary but not giving ground in specific areas which are continually under threat - RED LINES like firearms licensing and the blossoming of provincial police 'protectorates'. Lead is a good example - we may ultimately find the loss of lead as a shot was inevitable but it was a long way away and yet, overnight BASC changed its view from "No Evidence - No Change to A voluntary ban, without consultation with members, without mentioning it to partners in shooting and crucially without the Evidence which could have supported a change? Or am I wrong ?

Car discounts are plentiful if you start with the right attitude - BASC is supposedly and exclusively an organisation which helps shooters not provides discounts which are readily available or newspapers when a blog/ webpage would be perfectly suitable at nil cost - unless you wish to generate more money - but then you could do it from advertising on your blog/webpage.

Best they change into what the members want and crucially the non-members would want and expect - How would they do that, They have no idea and continue down a path to ..................................
 
I travelled to my nearest garage offering a BASC discount , some 150 mile round trip and was offered a £4k discount and a £31k trade in, after photos and being checked by the garage, for my present vehicle at the time.
I went to my local garage, a 16 mile round trip and was offered a discount of £8.5k discount and £32k trade in without even looking at my vehicle.
A similar thing happened a few years ago when I decided to change from a Discovery to a Volvo. My Volvo garage that offered the BASC discount was not interested in listening about the BASC and did me a better deal without the 'help' of BASC
can only assume that the garages can do as they see fit? Our garage wasn't the "fleet" one which is where the discounts apply but were happy to honour it anyway
 
A suggestion to modernise the AGM & go online was made a long time ago, when the new "Communications" building was opened, almost everything could have gone digital / online, No need for a paper magazine.
 
can only assume that the garages can do as they see fit? Our garage wasn't the "fleet" one which is where the discounts apply but were happy to honour it anyway
Try a little experiment, dont mention BASC , and see if these magic discounts still apply ?

Think about this logically , why would a garage/dealership offer £1000s off a vehicle, because youre a member of a shooting organisation theyve likely never heard of ?
On a £30,000 vehicle , they have around a £10k profit margin to play with, and a sale is a sale, how do I know this ? 35 years of experience.
 
What I find odd from the many comments on SD about BASC is that one moment there are complaints that they don't have the power to challenge the gov or police forces etc then in the same vein they are able to influence gov policy at the detriment to the shooter, not sure how it can be both ways.

This is quite simply NOT the issue. I think every shooter wants an organisation whish can influence Gov Policy. In order to explain that has been achieved how would you measure it ? In days of clays for Members of Parliament ? A voluntary lead-ban, a series of 'achievements' which end up in failures for shooters like medicals where BASC's intent, laudable as it would have been, was subverted by the Police Firearms and explosives group and they didn't see it coming. Why do you think 8% of shooters have left shooting and why are BASC finally 'energised' to do something about it ? Albeit the wrong approach. Maybe its subs ?

You have to be credible as an organisation to influence anyone and that means being right all the time, also pragmatic when necessary but not giving ground in specific areas which are continually under threat - RED LINES like firearms licensing and the blossoming of provincial police 'protectorates'. Lead is a good example - we may ultimately find the loss of lead as a shot was inevitable but it was a long way away and yet, overnight BASC changed its view from "No Evidence - No Change to A voluntary ban, without consultation with members, without mentioning it to partners in shooting and crucially without the Evidence which could have supported a change? Or am I wrong ?

Car discounts are plentiful if you start with the right attitude - BASC is supposedly and exclusively an organisation which helps shooters not provides discounts which are readily available or newspapers when a blog/ webpage would be perfectly suitable at nil cost - unless you wish to generate more money - but then you could do it from advertising on your blog/webpage.

Best they change into what the members want and crucially the non-members would want and expect - How would they do that, They have no idea and continue down a path to ..................................
I agree we all want an org that can influence policy strong enough to win or get what we want every time, however to my knowledge there has never been an org that is capable of that. I can't see any strong contenders.

With regards to consulting members, the various challenges facing the shooting community today are not "org" specific and there have been many calls for evidence etc to support the challenge back. All it takes is a look on google to find an alarming number of posts on public forums of many saying "even if there is a lead ban ill still use it as they won't be able to tell" for example which was not a sole BASC but involved a number of orgs, though BASC may be the most vocal of the group, which in my opinion is no bad thing. Any policy maker that see's something like is almost certainly going to push for stronger restrictions to try and mitigate that fact.

There are also the call outs of "shooting becoming to expensive" which, if you look at everything in life these days, the cost goes up. It is what it is in relation to that. Does it stop people getting into it or push people out, not in my opinion. I've found it cheaper than the many nights I spent clubbing when I first turned 18. The comparison could be made to the price of a drink in the pub now versus years ago, this doesn't stop people drinking

Car discounts are indeed plentiful and this as I said was a benefit of my membership already not the reason I took it out. But using the discount on top of dealership discounts as well as my Mrs who is not a BASC member being able to use it were benefit enough for me.

Im sure anyone can poke holes in any org should they so wish. But, if someone feels that any org doesn't represent them or in a way they want, it is a free market with the ability to join a different one that does.

Doubling back to the point re being a vocal org, this is something we should expect by all orgs in this day and age. It is extremely easy to reach a large number of population with relative ease and educating and engaging the public is what will prevent shooting from disappearing or becoming so niche that only a number of "employed" people can do it ( as others have suggested may happen in other posts) though I don't think that will ever be the case. I for one would welcome all other orgs to be vocal on public forums etc and drive engagement
 
Try a little experiment, dont mention BASC , and see if these magic discounts still apply ?

Think about this logically , why would a garage/dealership offer £1000s off a vehicle, because youre a member of a shooting organisation theyve likely never heard of ?
On a £30,000 vehicle , they have around a £10k profit margin to play with, and a sale is a sale, how do I know this ? 35 years of experience.
Im aware discounts would likely be available without BASC membership, however as i've stated in a subsequent post, this discount was available on top of what the dealer would offer, and regardless on if they have heard of BASC or not, it had to be honoured as part of the agreement
 
Lead is a good example - we may ultimately find the loss of lead as a shot was inevitable but it was a long way away and yet, overnight BASC changed its view from "No Evidence - No Change to A voluntary ban, without consultation with members, without mentioning it to partners in shooting and crucially without the Evidence which could have supported a change? Or am I wrong ?

Sorry to be pedantic, but a ban cannot be voluntary, nor can a voluntary move be a ban. But I know what you mean, of course.

Leaving that aside, if you accept that a ban was inevitable, why do you think it was " a long way off", given what was happening in the EU?

What is your preferred plan - just sit and wait until the axe falls, with truly disastrous consequence for shooting? Or do the sensible thing and help to wean shooting off neurotoxic ammunition, so that we have a future? Or is the truth that most ardent lead-heads are old fogies who don't give a damn about the next generation for rather unfortunate, if obvious, reasons.

As for evidence, are you really a better scientist than the GWCT? A wise person changes his position when presented with a change of facts; what do you do?

On partners, every main shooting org took the same view. If you mean cartridge assemblers, they are supposed to meet market demand as it changes. If they don't they go bust. They need market demand to make non-tox ammo - as they are now doing in spades. I point you to the questions I asked of named directors of Gamebore about their 2018/9 accounts, filed at Companies House, where in the directors' statement they assured they had the legislative challenges to lead in hand and were at the forefront of developing non-toxic ammunition. Which should we take at face value, Gamebore's published accounts, or their joint letter of early 2020? The two communications seem to contradict each other.

As for representing members, if you really think you speak for more than a tiny band of obsessive BASC-bashers, why don't you have the courage to stand for election to BASC council, which makes policy? It's called leadership. If you don't like it, then don't join.

Or, if you are a member, you can vote the council members out - something you cannot do with any other org. Simply spending hour upon hour, day after day, bashing the only org than even bothers to post on here, seems like a sad waste of life to me. But hey, each to their own... I wouldn't ban anybody's little hobby.
 
One of the biggest selling points by which BASC drew members was on the basis that They did a lot for shooting - I cant see it myself but I do quite a lot of campaigning for myself and on behalf of shooting generally, believing we owe so much that shooting gives everyone and that is nothing to do with killing but far, far more with being in the environment we all love and at-one with nature in its wild state. Yes we are lucky but if we dont fight effectively for what we have it will be lost.
That is my motivation but its not BASC's it would appear. Just my view. By the way BASC led the other orgs kicking and screaming into a voluntary lead ban - and did not take the ammo maufacturers with them or even consult them, least they could and should have done was show US the evidence which changed their minds ! Stitch-ups have a way of rebounding and that was the ultimate betrayal.
 
Im aware discounts would likely be available without BASC membership, however as i've stated in a subsequent post, this discount was available on top of what the dealer would offer, and regardless on if they have heard of BASC or not, it had to be honoured as part of the agreement
I dont think youre understanding my point, or indeed how the 'discount' system works.
How are the dealership going to get back this extra BASC discount they have applied ? Send an invoice to BASC for it ?
Do BASC send that many punters to them, that are buying cars/trucks that they can afford to swallow up £1000s of losses ?

These days , selling certain types of commercial is hard work, dealerships need to move units to keep the franchise, and huge discounts are available.
All BASC do is jump on the bandwagon and insinuate that without their 'help' it would have cost you so much more, its probably good if you see a brand new truck for £35k and are willing to pay whatever the dealer asks you, then you find BASC membership saves you £3k, but if you just bid the dealership £32k (or less) in the first place, they would 100% accept it , and if they dont , keep walking till they do.
 
I dont think youre understanding my point, or indeed how the 'discount' system works.
How are the dealership going to get back this extra BASC discount they have applied ? Send an invoice to BASC for it ?
Do BASC send that many punters to them, that are buying cars/trucks that they can afford to swallow up £1000s of losses ?

These days , selling certain types of commercial is hard work, dealerships need to move units to keep the franchise, and huge discounts are available.
All BASC do is jump on the bandwagon and insinuate that without their 'help' it would have cost you so much more, its probably good if you see a brand new truck for £35k and are willing to pay whatever the dealer asks you, then you find BASC membership saves you £3k, but if you just bid the dealership £32k (or less) in the first place, they would 100% accept it , and if they dont , keep walking till they do.
I can assure you I understand what your saying, what I am saying is that any discount offered by the dealer, provided they are signed up to the BASC motoring discount scheme, you can then add the additional discount from BASC on top. But this is neither here nor there
 
Sorry to be pedantic, but a ban cannot be voluntary, nor can a voluntary move be a ban. But I know what you mean, of course.

Leaving that aside, if you accept that a ban was inevitable, why do you think it was " a long way off", given what was happening in the EU?

What is your preferred plan - just sit and wait until the axe falls, with truly disastrous consequence for shooting? Or do the sensible thing and help to wean shooting off neurotoxic ammunition, so that we have a future? Or is the truth that most ardent lead-heads are old fogies who don't give a damn about the next generation for rather unfortunate, if obvious, reasons.

As for evidence, are you really a better scientist than the GWCT? A wise person changes his position when presented with a change of facts; what do you do?

On partners, every main shooting org took the same view. If you mean cartridge assemblers, they are supposed to meet market demand as it changes. If they don't they go bust. They need market demand to make non-tox ammo - as they are now doing in spades. I point you to the questions I asked of named directors of Gamebore about their 2018/9 accounts, filed at Companies House, where in the directors' statement they assured they had the legislative challenges to lead in hand and were at the forefront of developing non-toxic ammunition. Which should we take at face value, Gamebore's published accounts, or their joint letter of early 2020? The two communications seem to contradict each other.

As for representing members, if you really think you speak for more than a tiny band of obsessive BASC-bashers, why don't you have the courage to stand for election to BASC council, which makes policy? It's called leadership. If you don't like it, then don't join.

Or, if you are a member, you can vote the council members out - something you cannot do with any other org. Simply spending hour upon hour, day after day, bashing the only org than even bothers to post on here, seems like a sad waste of life to me. But hey, each to their own... I wouldn't ban anybody's little hobby.
Forgive me but I may not answer every point.
It was a voluntary move away from lead - we all know that as you say - not ban as BASC were very keen to point out but hardly an orderly transition when no evidence was given and therefore credibility is sacrificed when a polar opposite view is taken with no explanation/consultation etc etc.
I think it was a long way off because the evidence was not conclusive - look at Norway and New Zealand. Moreover what about the millions extra tonnes of lead the world is consuming ? Surely ther are other sources that could have been tackl;ed first and then - we will give up lead if others do. The cry from the antis is thousands of tone of lead from shooting - what about past shooting, where is the evidence this has killed many or any people or game come to that.
I do not regard myself as 'a better scientist' but I do like to check all the evidence, not just that which supports my viewpoint and there seems to me to be a distinct lack hard facts except hysterical and unconfirmed 'facts' from those who's agenda is hardy even-handed.
Your point about partners is, in my view, not true. Meeting market demand is one thing, but changing a whole industry without the evidence is clearly stupid - not to mention the joy of shooting old English guns which is compromised as well as thier 'market'.
Its easy to call people who object to BASC - bashers - are you saying nothing of what I and others have said is true ? I think you will find most of it is and if you wish to inform others is that really bashing ? I think not. As for standing for election - I have said I would you can trace that through the site but BASC refused to confirm they would not use their bylaws to expel me for the reason you seem to champion either before the election or after. We are all wary of loaded guns.
As for your final sentence - this is inaccurate since all Council Members sit more than once, allowed by a relaxed membership to continue a stagnant course. I dont spend hour upon hour etc etc - I do however believe I am right and would not turn people from thier 'truth' so evidence is required - I make nothing up in my BASC posts you take away what you want.
Finally the insulting comment - I thought more of you than that but prejudice runs two ways you could be supporting an Org which is failing - I stand by all I have said. I have other 'little' hobbies too - like farming, painting (watercolour) community rep for lots of projects locally and so forth.
If you an genuinely say what I have written is not an opinion based on good facts than please let me know but dont insinuate its 'little hobby' its rather more than that its a search for the truth in a somewhat murky and self-interested organisation. As an example of the latter BASC refused to disclose the reasons why a JR would not have any effect on the disparate (then) views of one (and later other Police forces) on insisting on a separate medical, separately paid for in addition to the basic fee ?
Given the chance, I would shoot me down in flames with the evidence from a QC that they took advice from (apparently). So, as has been said before by those you defend '- NO Evidence - No change (in my attitude)
(I do not include all BASC staff in my criticism as I have clearly stated many times before.)
 
I totally agree in everything in this post.
But can I ask why are you still a member time and time again they do what BASC THINK IS BEST. NOT WHAT THE MEMBERS WANT.

Fair question. Last time, I got caught out. I hadn't been shooting, and the cover had lapsed. I discovered this, a few days before travelling, and my quickest option, was to just renew.

It was the last time. I am no longer willing to support anyone, who doesn't support me, and IMPO, the only people the BASC are interested in, are themselves.
 
How anyone, member or not, can believe The Voice is an effective defender of shooting sports, is beyond me, maybe it's a "Hope springs eternal" thing, Just ONE win over an important legal issue would cure the whole "Bashing" scenario.
 
I am with CPSA. As I've said their cover still gives legal protection against withdrawal or revocation or refusal to renew an SGC and they didn't sign the lead ban letter BASC promoted. Their cover also covers stalking, game shooting, vermin shooting. I sadly don't get offers of discounts on cars that even with that discount I couldn't afford anyway. It's as useful to me as 15% off a Bentley Mulsanne.
 
I am with CPSA. As I've said their cover still gives legal protection against withdrawal or revocation or refusal to renew an SGC and they didn't sign the lead ban letter BASC promoted. Their cover also covers stalking, game shooting, vermin shooting. I sadly don't get offers of discounts on cars that even with that discount I couldn't afford anyway. It's as useful to me as 15% off a Bentley Mulsanne.
Seeing as you are promoting the CPSA legal insurance cover (for SGCs only, note), can you tell us: A) how many cases they handle under that cover per year, and B) of those, how many have resulted in a win at court? If the answers are good, I expect the CPSA will be eager to help.
 
Seeing as you are promoting the CPSA legal insurance cover (for SGCs only, note), can you tell us: A) how many cases they handle under that cover per year, and B) of those, how many have resulted in a win at court? If the answers are good, I expect the CPSA will be eager to help.

And perhaps, having deleted your previous, inaccurate post, trying to defend the BASC, you could tell us what your interest is, especially as you've gone to the trouble of looking into CCC's details !

And, just how big a premises does a small, specialist insurance broker need ? Richard Branson started selling from a garage, didn't seem to do him much harm !

Trying to recall what the deleted post said, it was along the lines that the BASC lost too many of the cases they took up, and were unable to recover costs ? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This would imply that the BASC were either proceeding with cases that should never have been taken on, or, the BASC's inhouse, or chosen legal team, were inept ?

So, if this is the case, it wasn't the cost of the insurance cover that was too expensive to justify the cost to the MEMBERS, but perhaps the inadequacies of those operating it ?
 
I haven't deleted any post.

You are confused about my post on another thread, where I pointed out that one of the main reasons BASC gave up its LEI was because too many LEI claims were not being taken up by the insurer's lawyers, or otherwise failing to achieve a satisfactory result. This was down to the insurer's legal advisers, and seems to be a problem for LEI in firearms cases generally. I personally have never heard of one that succeeded. My suggestion is that the insurance company solicitors are reluctant to take on such cases because their client - the insurance co - cannot recover costs even if they win. To reiterate, it's the LEI insurance co, not BASC, that was failing to take up cases.

In addition, the annual LEI fees charged to BASC by the LEI insurance company went up dramatically, I am told. That's a separate issue, but reinforces the first. Why subsidise a scheme with increasing amounts of members money when it doesn't work and the restrictions etc get more and more onerous each year? Who benefits?

I have posted about Country Cover Club several times over recent months. Look up my posts. Better still, look up Country Cover Club on Companies House. They are not a start up but have been around for years. Look up their two directors, and look where CCC introduce most of their insurance business. They may be perfectly fine for your purposes. I am not demeaning them. But do your research.
 
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