Thoughts on BASC's new stance on Police Firearms Licensing Departments!

[Rewulf]

The only thing I can see that BASC represents is large scale commercial shoots and a certain agency that will find a peg for a gun to stand at. Could it possibly be that these large businesses are also BASC’s largest donors and the owners of such businesses have the biggest sway?

Im not sure about donors, but certainly there is mutual business interests....
Does BASC need donors though , if it does have 150,000 members paying £80 a year (£12m alone), plus all its advertising revenue, training schemes ect.
Although they do do some stuff for free, often with a promotional angle, they do a lot more for cash reward.
Anyone know an up to date figure for what they have in the bank, Id like to know how the 'fighting fund' is doing

 

[enfieldspares]

Anyone know an up to date figure for what they have in the bank, Id like to know how the 'fighting fund' is doing

Seems to me the only "fighting" mostly done is the fighting to undo the screw cap on the Pimm's at the Game Fair. All that money on driven days at Catton Hall and yet this intent of the Home Office to introduce this new offence regarding reloading components that, as ever, will be used to prosecute law abiding shooters. As was the case if some were found to have even a slack handful of expanding bullets (not assembled cartridges but bullets) during the time the Tories raised the mere bullets to s5 if expanding. Never, never ever, saw a case of a criminal caught with a firearm and ammunition ever convicted of possessing expanding ammunition as well as possession of the actual firearm.

 

[bottletopbill]

Same as the motorist easier to go after legal ones.
Most illegal guns are involved with drug gangs so that is why not much said and look at the news of those who are stabbed on our streets.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I would recommend Episode 17 of the BASC podcast for insights on the challenges with firearms licensing in England and Wales and BASC's work on that, from both a BASC and police perspective.

Podcast

Each episode includes the latest news and views relating to shooting with expert analysis of shooting-related affairs and interviews.

basc.org.uk

 

[TomTalks]

I would recommend Episode 17 of the BASC podcast for insights on the challenges with firearms licensing in England and Wales and BASC's work on that, from both a BASC and police perspective.

Podcast

Each episode includes the latest news and views relating to shooting with expert analysis of shooting-related affairs and interviews.

basc.org.uk

Out of Episode 17 above.....

The police worked with BASC to widen the net re medical checks.
BUT! Why was charging for medical checks not challenged robustly?


Continuous monitoring by GP’s via marker on record tripping red flag police response!
BASC pushed this in an effort to effect a 10 year license.

OK sounds legitimate…..but! How many folks will stop going to their GP for help?

Is persistent monitoring of firearms license holders (Medical markers / Red flags) and very possible reduction of folks seeking help for mental illness a reasonable price to pay merely to obtain a 10 year license
This is not applicable for vehicle driving licenses, vehicles kill thousands every year, many deaths are in dubious circumstances, some malicious…….yet no medical marker
Does this suggest the firearms license community are being singled out unfairly?

Some might ask........1984 anyone?


If a 10 year license is introduced, and, given it is one of BASC' openly publicised goals!
It is probable that there will be an associated increase with license revocation, legitimate or otherwise.

What is BASC' stance regarding revocations that have not followed the firearms Act (Illegal revocation / seizure)?
Will BASC absolutely commit to robust legal challenges to ensure police are held to account?

 

[Rewulf]

What is BASC' stance regarding revocations that have not followed the firearms Act (Illegal revocation / seizure)?
Will BASC absolutely commit to robust legal challenges to ensure police are held to account

You are joking, what would be a good reason for dropping the LEI?
If you get revoked unfairly, BASC have made it very clear you're on your own.

 

[TomTalks]

You are joking, what would be a good reason for dropping the LEI?
If you get revoked unfairly, BASC have made it very clear you're on your own.

Bear in mind the following statement from BASC’s 2022 financial statement!

…….there are significant challenges ahead in 2022 that BASC is uniquely placed to overcome. We will continue to fight legal challenges in the courts and apply pressure to the police and politicians to deliver a fair and consistent licencing system……..


From the most cursory of looks, at BASC accounts, it is clear that most funds remained static across 2020/2021 except notably:

• Legacy fund was increased (Whatever that is)
• And the fighting fund decreased: (Transfer between other reserves, suggesting funds were moved elsewhere not used)
  • £706,470 in 2020
  • £587,656 in 2021

A fighting fund reduction year on year of £118,814

As at 31st Dec 2021, the report reads as though £118,814 was transferred to another reserve? (Thought it was ring fenced) This could be funds that were expended but it reads as transferred, so nothing fenced?

In addition profit was in excess of £940,000 (After tax) at the same point..

Given the increased appetite of HSE & Police Authorities to nibble away at legal firearms ownership.
Would it not be prudent to significantly include and (This time) ensure it is ring fenced?

 

[bottletopbill]

All that money went for the TOFFS to be taken shooting by BASC on our expense . (look after there own pockets)

 

[TomTalks]

All that money went for the TOFFS to be taken shooting by BASC on our expense . (look after there own pockets)

I could not possibly comment, but would genuinely like to know more about (In plain English) the separate entity alongside BASC ?


BASC Direct Limited

BASC Direct Limited (Registered in Wales No. 09113296) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the association. (BASC is listed as ctive person with significant control)
BASC Council established this company to ensure that certain financial transactions relating to non-members can be easily identified, recorded and managed.

BASC Direct Limited, a wholly owned subsidiary company of the Association, completed a sixth year of trading, resulting in a surplus after tax of £360,767 (2020: £173,568).



Would be great to understand the subsidiries legitmimate purpose and see the expenditure!

 

[kes]

I could not possibly comment, but would genuinely like to know more about (In plain English) the separate entity alongside BASC ?


BASC Direct Limited

BASC Direct Limited (Registered in Wales No. 09113296) is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the association. (BASC is listed as ctive person with significant control)
BASC Council established this company to ensure that certain financial transactions relating to non-members can be easily identified, recorded and managed.

BASC Direct Limited, a wholly owned subsidiary company of the Association, completed a sixth year of trading, resulting in a surplus after tax of £360,767 (2020: £173,568).



Would be great to understand the subsidiries legitmimate purpose and see the expenditure!

BASC DIRECT LIMITED people - Find and update company information - GOV.UK
It doesnt tell you a great deal.

 

[TomTalks]

For clarity, I have nothing against BASC.
I do however have an interest in seeing transparency in any organisation that purports to help it's members.

Hence for balance, I've already spoken to several senior members of my local police force, plus firearms licensing, I'll be speaking shortly to a senior officer charged with improving the firearms licensing service.

If we all just accept, and do not actively engage in a civil manner, we will lose much of our shooting activities within a generation!

 

[tim@tcs]

For clarity, I have nothing against BASC.
I do however have an interest in seeing transparency in any organisation that purports to help it's members.

Hence for balance, I've already spoken to several senior members of my local police force, plus firearms licensing, I'll be speaking shortly to a senior officer charged with improving the firearms licensing service.

If we all just accept, and do not actively engage in a civil manner, we will lose much of our shooting activities within a generation!

I am the same, I was a member but moved to the NGO as BASC costed more than my FAC over it’s lifetime!
The problem with lead isn’t that it’s bad for you, that’s well known and reducing its effects is important but it’s the many other substances in the toxic compound list that are more harmful than lead, occur naturally and in food and aren’t being tackled!
Just about everything is bad for us in large amounts and I’m sure I have eaten more intensively farmed food throughout my life than game shot with toxic ammunition!
The wetland lead ban was based on poor science and opened the door to the mess we find ourselves in today!

 

[TomTalks]

Would be great to understand the subsidiries legitmimate purpose and see the expenditure!

OK a little perusing of publicy available documents...

2020 £315,210 in administrative expenses
2021 £263,664 in administrative expenses

2020 Cash at bank and in hand £1,175,171
2020 Creditors - (Money owed for a product, service or loan) £800,184 deducted / paid out

2021 Cash at bank and in hand £1,246,853
2021 Creditors - (Money owed for a product, service or loan) £592,489 deducted / paid out


For a company with 0 employees, and with a mandate to 'ensure that certain financial transactions relating to non-members can be easily identified, recorded and managed'


I'm going to stop digging now as my spidey senses are twitching....!
Also I need to focus on the upcoming discourse with local police, who have been pretty open thus far........

 

[timbrayford]

Sorry to be pedantic, but a ban cannot be voluntary, nor can a voluntary move be a ban. But I know what you mean, of course.

Leaving that aside, if you accept that a ban was inevitable, why do you think it was " a long way off", given what was happening in the EU?

What is your preferred plan - just sit and wait until the axe falls, with truly disastrous consequence for shooting? Or do the sensible thing and help to wean shooting off neurotoxic ammunition, so that we have a future? Or is the truth that most ardent lead-heads are old fogies who don't give a damn about the next generation for rather unfortunate, if obvious, reasons.

As for evidence, are you really a better scientist than the GWCT? A wise person changes his position when presented with a change of facts; what do you do?

On partners, every main shooting org took the same view. If you mean cartridge assemblers, they are supposed to meet market demand as it changes. If they don't they go bust. They need market demand to make non-tox ammo - as they are now doing in spades. I point you to the questions I asked of named directors of Gamebore about their 2018/9 accounts, filed at Companies House, where in the directors' statement they assured they had the legislative challenges to lead in hand and were at the forefront of developing non-toxic ammunition. Which should we take at face value, Gamebore's published accounts, or their joint letter of early 2020? The two communications seem to contradict each other.

As for representing members, if you really think you speak for more than a tiny band of obsessive BASC-bashers, why don't you have the courage to stand for election to BASC council, which makes policy? It's called leadership. If you don't like it, then don't join.

Or, if you are a member, you can vote the council members out - something you cannot do with any other org. Simply spending hour upon hour, day after day, bashing the only org than even bothers to post on here, seems like a sad waste of life to me. But hey, each to their own... I wouldn't ban anybody's little hobby.

I thought that it was a voluntary phase out, not a ban?

 

[Len the dog]

I thought that it was a voluntary phase out, not a ban?

It started off as a voluntary phase out in an attempt to stave off a compulsory ban, however all it seems to have achieved is to hasten the timeframe for a ban.

 

[timbrayford]

It started off as a voluntary phase out in an attempt to stave off a compulsory ban, however all it seems to have achieved is to hasten the timeframe for a ban.

With all due respect that is conjecture, the HSE consultation has some time to run and a Queen's Speech Bill is even more distant

 

[Rewulf]

With all due respect that is conjecture, the HSE consultation has some time to run and a Queen's Speech Bill is even more distant

Sorry for butting in, but surely the reason for the 'voluntary phase out' was because, and I quote , 'The writings on the wall, lead shot will be banned for live quarry. Therefore we will be supporting blah blah...'
Next thing you know , the HSE are going after ALL lead ammunition, potentially destroying large sections of shooting sports ?

I know its got a ways to go yet obviously, but its not a good thing to be faced with.

 

[timbrayford]

Sorry for butting in, but surely the reason for the 'voluntary phase out' was because, and I quote , 'The writings on the wall, lead shot will be banned for live quarry. Therefore we will be supporting blah blah...'
Next thing you know , the HSE are going after ALL lead ammunition, potentially destroying large sections of shooting sports ?

I know its got a ways to go yet obviously, but its not a good thing to be faced with.

Absolutely, but the origins of this lie with EU REACH in 2017 and not the subsequent statement by any of the shooting orgs.

 

[Len the dog]

Totally agree, but the point I was alluding to was that by volunteering our own ‘ban’, we appear to have simply given the HSE the impetus to get the deal done as quickly as possible.

 

[terrier1]

Absolutely, but the origins of this lie with EU REACH in 2017 and not the subsequent statement by any of the shooting orgs.

We are not in the EU anymore.