Can you point me in the right direction to this legislation.. Is this UK law?
This is why I don’t like chest shots.
- Thread starter Dunwaters
- Start date
deerstalker.308
Well-Known Member
He’s in Ireland so may not be the same legislation
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
If I recall correctly any sight or device added to an existing sight which electronically enhances the “sight picture” is illegal in Scotland day or night for the shooting of deer. Trust me, just don’t ask how I
UK law doesn't apply in Ireland mate.
This has been a very interesting thread.
Bullet construction and velocity is the #1 factor in this front on chest shot debate. Most of you are probably using swaged copper bullets like Barnes and consequently complain about messing up the carcass by puncturing the rumen.
When shooting red hinds for meat with my .308 I will use this shot placement deliberately when available, because it is a guaranteed bang flop and it never splits the rumen. Range usually relatively close, so 50-250m give or take. This non-rumen-splitting performance is because the projectile is very soft (Speer BTSP 165gr) and relatively slow (2,560 ft./sec), and it expands instantly to a diameter of around 2.5 - 3.0x calibre… It properly pancakes as it passes through the hide / top of sternum / front lungs & hilar / maybe top of heart / rear lungs before pulling up in the liver. The lungs and hilar are a shocking mess yet the shoulders / saddle / hind quarters etc are untouched. Recovered bullets often show jacket and core separation yet the combined weight is relatively consistent at around only 20-30% weight loss. That’s from a sample of probably half a dozen that I’ve bothered to clean up and weigh over the last few years.
If however I take the same shot with the .300 WSM and 130gr Barnes at she’ll-nae-handle-it-captain warp speed, then there is a fairly good chance that the bullet will exit out of the hindquarters of the animal. It is simply not an option as it is a frankly revolting green (and brown) outcome.
Somewhere between the two are the high velocity lead bullets that I use for precision shooting animals that I want to drop on the spot. The 108gr ELD-M at 3,000 ft./sec will often puncture the rumen on medium sized fallow bucks, but probably not on a heavy red stag. I’ve had a couple that have been a bit messy and a couple that have just had a small hole in the rumen from a fragment and minor leakage. The 143gr ELD-X at 2,800 ft./sec will definitely make a mess on a small animal at close range.
The common thread between all these bullets at their differing velocities is that the animal is instantly poleaxed. No dog required. And there’s no meat loss.
You have to adapt your shot placement not just according to how the animal is standing but the tools that you have in your hand. It’s not an idle wind-up comment when I say that the regular rural bloke in NZ who carries a rifle daily in the ute / quad / utv would (from the OP’s description) have dropped all of those deer on the spot or very close to it with a cheap and cheerful .223, regular 55gr softpoint and 4x or 3-9x scope. And I wouldn’t mind betting some of the shots would’ve been taken offhand or with a rudimentary rest at best! But ignore that part, not important…
Bullet construction and velocity is the #1 factor in this front on chest shot debate. Most of you are probably using swaged copper bullets like Barnes and consequently complain about messing up the carcass by puncturing the rumen.
When shooting red hinds for meat with my .308 I will use this shot placement deliberately when available, because it is a guaranteed bang flop and it never splits the rumen. Range usually relatively close, so 50-250m give or take. This non-rumen-splitting performance is because the projectile is very soft (Speer BTSP 165gr) and relatively slow (2,560 ft./sec), and it expands instantly to a diameter of around 2.5 - 3.0x calibre… It properly pancakes as it passes through the hide / top of sternum / front lungs & hilar / maybe top of heart / rear lungs before pulling up in the liver. The lungs and hilar are a shocking mess yet the shoulders / saddle / hind quarters etc are untouched. Recovered bullets often show jacket and core separation yet the combined weight is relatively consistent at around only 20-30% weight loss. That’s from a sample of probably half a dozen that I’ve bothered to clean up and weigh over the last few years.
If however I take the same shot with the .300 WSM and 130gr Barnes at she’ll-nae-handle-it-captain warp speed, then there is a fairly good chance that the bullet will exit out of the hindquarters of the animal. It is simply not an option as it is a frankly revolting green (and brown) outcome.
Somewhere between the two are the high velocity lead bullets that I use for precision shooting animals that I want to drop on the spot. The 108gr ELD-M at 3,000 ft./sec will often puncture the rumen on medium sized fallow bucks, but probably not on a heavy red stag. I’ve had a couple that have been a bit messy and a couple that have just had a small hole in the rumen from a fragment and minor leakage. The 143gr ELD-X at 2,800 ft./sec will definitely make a mess on a small animal at close range.
The common thread between all these bullets at their differing velocities is that the animal is instantly poleaxed. No dog required. And there’s no meat loss.
You have to adapt your shot placement not just according to how the animal is standing but the tools that you have in your hand. It’s not an idle wind-up comment when I say that the regular rural bloke in NZ who carries a rifle daily in the ute / quad / utv would (from the OP’s description) have dropped all of those deer on the spot or very close to it with a cheap and cheerful .223, regular 55gr softpoint and 4x or 3-9x scope. And I wouldn’t mind betting some of the shots would’ve been taken offhand or with a rudimentary rest at best! But ignore that part, not important…
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
this thread might even beat word association for the bored by the time we're over LOL
Firefly
Well-Known Member
It was always going to be entertainingthis thread might even beat word association for the bored by the time we're over LOL
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Sorry, its included in the ROI 1990 firearms act, so not relevant to the UK or NI.
huntinlabs
Well-Known Member
Sorry this may be an ignorant question. but while growing up in the US i have eaten many gut shot deer by family members and even though it is never intended when I was a young kid I have gut shot deer myself (thankfully it has been a very long time since I've gut shot anything). However, there has never been any ill effects of eating these whitetail that were gut shot. So why would you say puncture the rumen then its a scrap? Like I said sorry if its an ignorant question but it seems over here in the UK people look at gut shot or ruptured guts during the gutting process in a total different manner than in America.
You're right. A gut shot animal can easily be salvaged by careful butchery. It would be a waste not to utilise as much as possible. But the carcass wouldn't be marketable. It would be home consumption only. Many of the deer shot in the UK are sold via game dealers into the human food chain, an option I believe isn't available to recreational hunters in the States. That's perhaps why we're a bit cautious (some may say over-cautious) when it comes to potential contamination.
huntinlabs
Well-Known Member
Actually this is not totally at odds with our "Best Practice" guidance:
Lardering | Best Practice Guidance
The recommended hygienic way to remove any contamination is trimming with a clean knife. Generally washing down the carcass should be avoided as it is not fully effective and will spread bacteria to other parts of the carcass. However where solid gut content is present inside the carcass, small quantities of low pressure water may be used before trimming.
I was taught to get the worst off by wiping it away using e.g. blue roll, before minimal washing. Rare for me to shoot e.g. a muntjac with the best placed of shots without some "green" contamination.
The risks should not be dismissed though, e.g. see Deer Meat as the Source for a Sporadic Case of Escherichia coli O157:H7 Infection, Connecticut
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huntinlabs
Well-Known Member
That has me questioning if it was cooked rare or blue? I like my venison rare to med rare but my steaks rare to blue. Undercooked has me thinking raw in terms of American terminology. However, Not sure the temps where ecoli dies at as far as freezing and heat goes. Also normally the meat for us anyways around the ribs and haunch gets minced then frozen for later use. The only thing I could see being contaminated and might cause harm depending on the temp death of ecoli is the tender loin (inner loin) if you don’t freeze it.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
See post 128, but here it is again.
Please don’t tell me that it doesn’t work, it does, I’ve done it many hundreds of times.
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That report shows a total cluelessness/recklessness by the hunter:
Interviews with the child’s parents found no history of traditional exposures for O157 infection. The child’s father provided information regarding the deer hunt and venison processing. The deer was shot (but not immediately killed) at noon in mid-November in Vermont. After tracking the wounded animal for 2 hours, the hunters located and field dressed the dead animal. An abdominal gunshot wound had resulted in intestinal rupture; no intact internal organs were visible when the deer was eviscerated in the field. No rinsing of the intestinal cavity occurred, as is general practice among deer hunters. The deer was dragged to a truck, brought back to camp, and hung outside overnight before being transported from southern Vermont to Connecticut. The deer was again hung outdoors overnight. Ambient air temperature ranged from 0°C-13°C during this period. The following morning the deer was skinned and cut into large sections. Individual sections were further cut, trimmed, and rinsed under running water before being packaged and stored in a home freezer. The tenderloin was rinsed, placed on a clean plate, refrigerated, and grilled outdoors that evening.
The child eat a large quantity of undercooked (red), gamey-tasting grilled venison tenderloin. His father ate a few bites of the venison; his mother and sister ate none. The only other family member to report symptoms of illness was the father, who reported having an “unsettled stomach” without diarrhea the same day as his son’s onset of illness.
Sounds as if the mother and sister didn't fancy the "gamey tasting" tenderloins, the father maybe only took a few bites, but the son gobbled the "large quantity" of the rest up
E coli is not killed by freezing, at least any domestic freezer. Just temporarily paused, until the meat begins to thaw.
Four weeks later, O157 was recovered from a frozen sample of uncooked venison obtained from the same carcass as the fresh, grilled tenderloin.
I could speculate that the rest of the frozen meat was just as contaminated as the "fresh" 3 days later tenderloin, no cold chain given the narrative.
It takes at least 71C to kill E Coli by cooking. By which temperature it is no longer blue, rare or pink, just well cooked all the way through.
Do US hunters know much about carcase inspection, never mind at the level that a trained hunter here should ? It won't show E coli contamination, that is down to best practice to minimise the chances. However if there is E coli, specifically 0157 it can be devastating. So far the world's worst outbreak was traced to a Scottish butcher, at least twenty died from it, young and old, and many more extremely sick.
One day I was butcher of the year .. then the next I was the mass murderer of the year; JOHN BARR ON THE E COLI CRISIS WHICH CLAIMED THE LIVES OF 20 CUSTOMERS. - Free Online Library
E. Coli (Scotland) (Hansard, 28 November 1996)
So, it always "piles up" in the liver ? I.e. it has already penetrated the diaphragm. So, if it doesn't remarkably hit a lobe of the liver every time, surely you know the anatomy of that region, where else might it finish up, if not somewhere messy.
The "Hilar" nerve plexus is not a substantial thing, TBH I have tried to identify it a couple of times in the larder, and failed to see it, but then I am no pathologist. I imagine it is analogous to the human solar plexus, which when temporarily knocked out, e.g. if you have played rugby you will probably have been "winded" at some point, is no laughing matter. Putting a bullet through it, or close by, would I'm sure be absolutely terminal.
Fundamentally, try not to let the bullet go behind the diaphragm, unless you are confident of say a quartering away shot into the right hand side, through the liver then the diaphragm, then into the "boiler room". I suppose in NZ a front on chest shot, with a soft bullet, might seem like an expedient idea but not one that I would choose.
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