How safe is a "safety"

[Hairysausagefingers]

I dropped a Remington 700 earlier this year when the sling snapped (stitching had worked loose on the triangular pad between rubber and webbing sections) and the whole lot clattered on the back of the truck bed I was standing on.
A proper wake up call. Anything could have happened.
Safety was on, but loaded. It didn't discharge.
I still shoot the same way, but I do check slings and swivels rigourously before each trip to the point of being paranoid.
I think if I had to chamber a round each time I got an opportunity for a shot, I'd shoot a fraction of what I do now.
Incident still gives me the shivers though.

 

[John Doe]

A few years back something happened that still makes my blood run cold.
All safeties are lethal on shotguns particularly non auto safeties.
A lady pushed her gun into the slip and it went off, frightened she dropped the gun.
It went off again and the charge hit another lady's knee from a couple of yards, which resulted in leg amputation. This lady is a friend and unfortunately still suffers with "Phantom pain".
With my rifles 3 in 3 out magazine when stalking and as nothing here is likely to kill me (so far) I shove one quietly in when ready to shoot. With shotgun always open on multi gun days until about to shoot.

I’m afraid that awful incident has nothing to do with safety catches and everything to do with gross negligence from that lady and, if she was a novice, those that should have been supervising her. Did the HSE or Police get involved?

 

[Jamsie]

I reckon most accidents are caused by a gun that was believed to be empty.
I think part of the problem, here in the UK, is that we're forever loading and unloading to the point that we no longer know whether the gun is loaded or not, and then we check, and check again because we forgot whether it was loaded or not the first time we looked, and so on. All a bit muddled, really.
I recall the remarks of another member of this site, who spends much of his time in Mozambique:

"As soon as I arrive in Africa I load my rifle, and it remains loaded until I leave".

To us, that may sound risky, but it's not, because he always knows, without fail, the status of his rifle. There is never any doubt about the matter, and therefore no accidents involving rifles believed to be unloaded.

In which case ... the reverse is also true, but safer?

Jamsie

 

[Heym SR20]

I dropped a Remington 700 earlier this year when the sling snapped (stitching had worked loose on the triangular pad between rubber and webbing sections) and the whole lot clattered on the back of the truck bed I was standing on.
A proper wake up call. Anything could have happened.
Safety was on, but loaded. It didn't discharge.
I still shoot the same way, but I do check slings and swivels rigourously before each trip to the point of being paranoid.
I think if I had to chamber a round each time I got an opportunity for a shot, I'd shoot a fraction of what I do now.
Incident still gives me the shivers though.

Very Lucky - have you actually looked at a Rem 700 trigger and how little engagement there is between trigger and sear. And all the safety does is to block the trigger.

Just about all of the contributors on here have had close experience of guns and rifles discharging when they weren’t meant to or close shaves etc.

It’s why I feel very uncomfortable with a rifle on my shoulder with a round in the chamber.

And its also why I don’t like DSC1 advocating this is standard practice.

 

[VSS]

In which case ... the reverse is also true, but safer?

Jamsie

The reverse doesn't exist, unless a gun is kept purely as an ornament. If you intend to fire it, then at some point it has to be loaded.

 

[Ratel]

I’m afraid that awful incident has nothing to do with safety catches and everything to do with gross negligence from that lady and, if she was a novice, those that should have been supervising her. Did the HSE or Police get involved?

Yes but considered an accident as with the Keepers. As I have said the end results can be catastrophic whether accident or negligence it matters not in the end, others seem to have a problem understanding that. I loathe non auto safety's on a shotgun.

 

[Tazz]

I stalk with a Sauer 404, as soon as I get to the ground I chamber a round and ensure safety is on, you can chamber a round on a 404 without priming the firing pin spring. Safety only comes off when a shot is about to be taken, if I get back in the vehicle to go to another piece of ground I remove the magazine empty the chamber put the round back in the magazine so there is no round chambered and the safety is still off, I always carry the rifle muzzle up

 

[Jamsie]

The reverse doesn't exist, unless a gun is kept purely as an ornament. If you intend to fire it, then at some point it has to be loaded.

Of course the reverse exists in this case. He said that if its always loaded, then he always knows the status of the rifle therefore its safe. Conversely, if its always unloaded, then he would also know the status of the rifle, therefore it's safe.
It's either one or the other.
There is good reason to carry your rifle 'hot' at specific times, but not ALL of the time.

Jamsie

 

[sh1kar]

That's my way ,simply cock the bolt when needed

Lethal. A slam fire waiting to happen
S

 

[HonestJohn]

Of course then there’s the old school chamber a round while holding the trigger down…

been seen in some rifles to create a slam fire, I'd be testing it out in a safe place before adopting this practice

 

[HonestJohn]

Hill stalking and the gun should be carried with a full mag but the bolt closed on an empty chamber .
Woodland stalking and the gun should be carried with a round chambered and the mag full.

To explain , on the hill you don't very often get something step out in-front of you unseen previously . few shots will be taken standing off hand , genrally there will be a definate stalk / crawl or general sneak in to get into the position to fire . You then load and often need to wait for the beast to stand . On odd occasions you bump one away from the heard or two or three that have separated off , its 50/50 you get onto it after working the bolt and taking a quick stander from the Argo pillar etc .

In woodland not always the correct name but farms , hedgerows and spots of thick trees etc . One in the chamber , with room to push it back down ( under the bolt ) carefull with that " under the bolt" i know of a stalker shot by his client who mistook under for infront of the bolt on the hill" . The rifle is generally in a sling on the shoulder muzzle up or down , one in the chamber safety on . most of your shots will present only for a short time in the shootable zone and just the working of the bolt will scare or alert the truly wild beast . Every tricky bit like jumping a small ditch, climbing a fence ( clear the chamber of the loaded round and close the bolt on an empty chamber ) . Those who think different either are very unsuccessful generally or don't understand what its really like or stalk pretty tame deer very used to people in the woods .

I have never stalked with anyone who did much different and i don't care what trainers say because when i did my dsc1 i was taught the most stupid impractical way of safely carrying a rifle. The two instructors where told to teach by the BDS. I later did a bit of stalking with one of them and i can tell you he certainly didn't use that way in the field ! Teaching silly stuff that is impractical won't ever be used a week out of training.

I stalk on my own with a round chambered on the hill, had MANY times when come round a mound or walked into an unexpected dip with hinds sheltering, you have maybe a few seconds to pick a good beast and take a shot. of all places where it's safe to have one up the spout, middle of the hill is probably THE one.

You may of course be making the assumption that hill stalking is done with more than one person, which is of course the 'traditional' way, and yes, if so, perhaps in that situation you may well be right.

 

[Bowland blades]

I stalk on my own with a round chambered on the hill, had MANY times when come round a mound or walked into an unexpected dip with hinds sheltering, you have maybe a few seconds to pick a good beast and take a shot. of all places where it's safe to have one up the spout, middle of the hill is probably THE one.

You may of course be making the assumption that hill stalking is done with more than one person, which is of course the 'traditional' way, and yes, if so, perhaps in that situation you may well be right.

Ground differs , hill stalking can mean scrambling up steep faces and crossing peat cuttings , burns with slippy rock under your boots . Or it could be walking over relitively unchallenging ground. In the latter i would of course do the same . I will not have a round chamberd inside an argo or other transport though end of ! if we look at injury and death by negligent discharge loaded in transit seems to top the list . Crawling in likewise always bolt closed on an empty chamber with rounds in the mag. I was on the nest nearest estate when the stalker was shot by his client who mistook under for in-front of the bolt on a crawl . i only learned 2 years ago the guy, hard to take in that a man could survive that kind of injury on the hill .
One must make their own call on safety and be prepared to defend their actions in court if something goes wrong remembering that the penalties of guilt must be harder to live with than the sentence , if your the one responsible.

 

[VSS]

Of course the reverse exists in this case. He said that if its always loaded, then he always knows the status of the rifle therefore its safe. Conversely, if its always unloaded, then he would also know the status of the rifle, therefore it's safe.
It's either one or the other.
There is good reason to carry your rifle 'hot' at specific times, but not ALL of the time.

Jamsie

A rifle that gets used is never always unloaded. It can't be, else no shots would ever be taken, and the gun would be nothing but an ornament. Sometimes it is loaded, and sometimes it is not, and confusion can arise as a result, leading to accidents. But that's the way we do it in the UK. Africa is a different story.

 

[Bowland blades]

A rifle that gets used is never always unloaded.

if you have not rechecked an empty gun and found a round over many years shooting or working in a gun shop , your simply not looking hard or often enough . Ask a long standing FEO how many they have found with one in the chamber , or an RFD .
I had one one as a teenager and thought i would never do that again , until i re checked my Semi auto before putting it in the truck ( as is my practice ) and found one a couple of years back , that's in around 40 years shooting . Very glad it happened when my teenage daughter was with me as it went home just why we check again before entering a building , veichle , crossing a fence etc ! Also why muzzle awareness is still important with " empty" guns !

 

[Tim.243]

if you have not rechecked an empty gun and found a round over many years shooting or working in a gun shop , your simply not looking hard or often enough . Ask a long standing FEO how many they have found with one in the chamber , or an RFD .
I had one one as a teenager and thought i would never do that again , until i re checked my Semi auto before putting it in the truck ( as is my practice ) and found one a couple of years back , that's in around 40 years shooting . Very glad it happened when my teenage daughter was with me as it went home just why we check again before entering a building , veichle , crossing a fence etc ! Also why muzzle awareness is still important with " empty" guns !

I had a wildfowler on the edge of the marsh sitting with his dog one side gun the other. the gun was on the bank muzzle up.
We had shot the tide and were coming back so had to walk past him, his semi was not on safe so when his dog jumped across him to lunge at mine it hit the trigger and it went off.....The lad who was with me never joined the next year..!
I made it back to the truck then shook for 10mins and drove home slowly ****ING ****...

 

[John Doe]

That's my way ,simply cock the bolt when needed

You’ve got to be joking surely?

 

[Milligan]

A rifle that gets used is never always unloaded. It can't be, else no shots would ever be taken, and the gun would be nothing but an ornament. Sometimes it is loaded, and sometimes it is not, and confusion can arise as a result, leading to accidents. But that's the way we do it in the UK. Africa is a different story.

Rule 1, treat every gun as if it is loaded, that way there isn't any confusion.
Rule 2, always point in a safe direction.

Accidents happen in those little momentary lapses.

 

[Mungo]

been seen in some rifles to create a slam fire, I'd be testing it out in a safe place before adopting this practice

Oh I’m not at all advocating it!

Just that once upon a time it was very common!

 

[sh1kar]

Oh I’m not at all advocating it!

Just that once upon a time it was very common!

Because once upon a time all those that advocated it are now dead!!!

 

[Freeforester]

I also have a Blaser and I appreciate what you are saying but I don't think any of us can say that the Blaser system can't fire without the user knowingly cocking it. I think it is "more safe" than a conventional safety but I also believe there are circumstances where it could "fail."

One example that comes to my head is that if you were to cock the rifle for some reason and then uncock it again, perhaps you didn't take the shot or perhaps you were firing a few rounds at a target, then a bit of dirt in the mechanism could prevent the complete "uncocking" of the spring. You then have a "completely safe" uncocked Blaser that just needs a bit of dirt disturbed to fire. I have no idea if this has actually happened but it is certainly one potential way in which an "uncocked" Blaser could fire.

I carry my rifle with one in the chamber as I'm mostly stalking in forestry and the chances of getting a shot if carrying the rifle empty is almost zero but I try to keep in mind that it is not entirely safe as mechanical failure could always produce an outcome I didn't expect.

I’m afraid I cannot agree with this scenario, have you ever examined the trigger mechanism on your Blaser? On each of my 4 R93‘s the safety/spring cocking mechanism is quite apart from the trigger mechanism, the latter of which is extremely - and elegantly - simple, and the sear only engages with the cocked spring at full compression, there being a distinct locking together at the very end of the forward travel of the cocking mechanism (also referred to as the ‘Safety catch’).

There is a reason why these are regarded as being the safest ‘safety’ mechanism in European mass production rifles commonly available - it simply cannot be accidentally discharged prior to the not inconsiderable effort required for engaging cocking the mechanism. Most other rifles when their bolt is closed carry an already cocked spring, held in check by a variety of ‘safety’ catches, designed to prevent the accidental slippage and/or discharge of the rifle; by contrast, the Blaser bolt system is only under any compression/tension once the spring cocking mechanism is forcibly pushed forward. You would furthermore immediately be aware from the lack of apparent reciprcoal ‘push back’ tension of the spring as it decompresses against the cocking button and your thumb or finger so used when one is in the act of de-cocking the spring mechanism, that the now de-cocked spring had been somehow still held in a cocked manner by the suggested piece of dirt.

The spring has to be wholly cocked and held in tension in order for it to permit the firing pin to strike the primer, there is no ‘half-cock’, when either engaging or disengaging the mechanism. I know of NO instance where the scenario you imagine has occurred, either here or abroad.

All other aspects concerning safe weapon handling are wholly commendable and agreed, it is almost always the combination of a careless person armed with an ‘unloaded’ weapon which results in the wholly avoidable tragedy. …Never, ever let your gun, pointed be at anyone; that it may unloaded be, matters not the least to me…

The scenario you describe (in your imagination) is however about as common/likely as finding a winning lottery ticket and swapping it for one night of romance with Nicola Sturgeon - hopefully, not in one’s imagination!