Virtus Precision bullets

[Heym SR20]

Price of copper / non toxic is a marginal additional cost. Most lead bullets are £40 to £50 per 100. Some are less. Some such as bonded or partitions are substantially more.

Most non toxic are around £50 a box of 50. Some are more some are less.

The additional cost is about 50p per bullet.

On deer the better quality carcass and additional meat recovery more than pays for itself. If your market / outlet for venison doesn’t pay for this either negotiate / educate them in the dangers of lead and get them to pay or take your venison elsewhere.

If you are shooting vermin with lead bullets then you should clear them away so that they cannot be consumed by wildlife. Ditto for grallochs. Cost / embuggerance of clearing up probably outweighs cost of bullets.

And knowingly leaving carcasses laced with a known toxin for wildlife to consume is a criminal offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. It’s not difficult to test a gralloch or dead crow or rabbit for lead fragments with supporting evidence of a camera trap of badgers, birds of prey etc eating such. It’s just a matter of time before somebody is prosecuted for this and defense would be very costly.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Price of copper / non toxic is a marginal additional cost. Most lead bullets are £40 to £50 per 100. Some are less. Some such as bonded or partitions are substantially more.

Most non toxic are around £50 a box of 50. Some are more some are less.

The additional cost is about 50p per bullet.

On deer the better quality carcass and additional meat recovery more than pays for itself. If your market / outlet for venison doesn’t pay for this either negotiate / educate them in the dangers of lead and get them to pay or take your venison elsewhere.

If you are shooting vermin with lead bullets then you should clear them away so that they cannot be consumed by wildlife. Ditto for grallochs. Cost / embuggerance of clearing up probably outweighs cost of bullets.

And knowingly leaving carcasses laced with a known toxin for wildlife to consume is a criminal offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. It’s not difficult to test a gralloch or dead crow or rabbit for lead fragments with supporting evidence of a camera trap of badgers, birds of prey etc eating such. It’s just a matter of time before somebody is prosecuted for this and defense would be very costly.

With all respect to yourself, you're just making bollocks up now.

I've deleted the rest of my response because quite frankly it's pointless. Copper is toxic along with lead. Copper is considerably more expensive. The cost for vermin or target shooting can't be justified by most, myself included if using lead free.

For what it's worth, I'm currently using yew tree ammo so it's not like I'm properly anti lead free. They DO work, they work at a decent range too which was the main pitfall before the likes of yew tree were on the market

 

[phillips321]

I tried these in my 6.5x55, the 110grn.
Easy to produce an accurate load. Carcass damage was a bit over the top for me and I didn’t carry on with them as 90% of what I shoot is weighed in.
Dropped deer where they stand though.

I'm currently using Nielsen Sonic Hunter 120gr in my 6.5x55, also too much meat damage. I saw the Virtus stand at the show but their images on the tablet and the banner behind them also showed far too much meat damage. I'm tempted to jump to Yew Tree for this reason. One thing i would note though, the Nielsen's are great for head and neck shooting, the petals are very helpful!

And knowingly leaving carcasses laced with a known toxin for wildlife to consume is a criminal offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. It’s not difficult to test a gralloch or dead crow or rabbit for lead fragments with supporting evidence of a camera trap of badgers, birds of prey etc eating such. It’s just a matter of time before somebody is prosecuted for this and defense would be very costly.

You're talking crap fella

 

[Heym SR20]

I'm currently using Nielsen Sonic Hunter 120gr in my 6.5x55, also too much meat damage. I saw the Virtus stand at the show but their images on the tablet and the banner behind them also showed far too much meat damage. I'm tempted to jump to Yew Tree for this reason. One thing i would note though, the Nielsen's are great for head and neck shooting, the petals are very helpful!


You're talking crap fella

I suggest you read the Wildlife and Countryside Act then.

 

[phillips321]

And knowingly leaving carcasses laced with a known toxin for wildlife to consume is a criminal offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. It’s not difficult to test a gralloch or dead crow or rabbit for lead fragments with supporting evidence of a camera trap of badgers, birds of prey etc eating such. It’s just a matter of time before somebody is prosecuted for this and defense would be very costly.

I suggest you read the Wildlife and Countryside Act then.

When i head shoot deer bits of meat fly everywhere, are you saying i should go around with a fine toothed comb to try and pick all of this up??? As im knowingly leaving that there....

 

[Heym SR20]

When i head shoot deer bits of meat fly everywhere, are you saying i should go around with a fine toothed comb to try and pick all of this up??? As im knowingly leaving that there....

No, but when you leave heart and lungs riddled with lead fragments or the remains of a rabbit that has been exploded with a fragment lead varmint bullet and you are knowingly leaving these knowing that you have put a known toxin into them then yes.

 

[25 Sharps]

Price of copper / non toxic is a marginal additional cost. Most lead bullets are £40 to £50 per 100. Some are less. Some such as bonded or partitions are substantially more.

Most non toxic are around £50 a box of 50. Some are more some are less.

The additional cost is about 50p per bullet.

On deer the better quality carcass and additional meat recovery more than pays for itself. If your market / outlet for venison doesn’t pay for this either negotiate / educate them in the dangers of lead and get them to pay or take your venison elsewhere.

If you are shooting vermin with lead bullets then you should clear them away so that they cannot be consumed by wildlife. Ditto for grallochs. Cost / embuggerance of clearing up probably outweighs cost of bullets.

And knowingly leaving carcasses laced with a known toxin for wildlife to consume is a criminal offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. It’s not difficult to test a gralloch or dead crow or rabbit for lead fragments with supporting evidence of a camera trap of badgers, birds of prey etc eating such. It’s just a matter of time before somebody is prosecuted for this and defense would be very costly.

Don’t you ever go on!

So everyone that’s been shooting vermin, rats, rabbits & foxes in the last 40 years has been breaking the WCA!

 

[Acm]

Price of copper / non toxic is a marginal additional cost. Most lead bullets are £40 to £50 per 100. Some are less. Some such as bonded or partitions are substantially more.

Most non toxic are around £50 a box of 50. Some are more some are less.

The additional cost is about 50p per bullet.

On deer the better quality carcass and additional meat recovery more than pays for itself. If your market / outlet for venison doesn’t pay for this either negotiate / educate them in the dangers of lead and get them to pay or take your venison elsewhere.

If you are shooting vermin with lead bullets then you should clear them away so that they cannot be consumed by wildlife. Ditto for grallochs. Cost / embuggerance of clearing up probably outweighs cost of bullets.

And knowingly leaving carcasses laced with a known toxin for wildlife to consume is a criminal offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act. It’s not difficult to test a gralloch or dead crow or rabbit for lead fragments with supporting evidence of a camera trap of badgers, birds of prey etc eating such. It’s just a matter of time before somebody is prosecuted for this and defense would be very costly.

This is one of those joke posts isn’t it. Hopefully I get to lace a few foxes with known toxins tonight

Not to mention the fact that if you did test the gralloch or vermin or rabbit for lead fragments how could it be proven that these are from the bullets that the shooter was using? Ballistic lab? This is all sounding rather costly suddenly. And it has to be remembered that our police don’t even have the budget to attend unfolding crimes. Let alone go around putting buckets of old gralloch through ballistics labs looking for a bullet which has been designed to fragment into thousands of pieces. Or if it’s been shot with a shotgun it can’t be tracked anyway sadly, just look at all the birds of prey that have been killed by delinquents who get away with it.

I’m sure to the letter of the law you’re probably right Heym, but surely a bit of common sense tells you this will never happen? It’s all sounding a bit silly.

 

[vitalspark]

I tried these in my 6.5x55, the 110grn.
Easy to produce an accurate load. Carcass damage was a bit over the top for me and I didn’t carry on with them as 90% of what I shoot is weighed in.
Dropped deer where they stand though.

@Acm was that the Eagle 110grn or Merlin 110grn? Any idea of muzzle velocity?
ATB

 

[Acm]

@Acm was that the Eagle 110grn or Merlin 110grn? Any idea of muzzle velocity?
ATB

I’ll check my notes and report back

 

[Acm]

@Acm was that the Eagle 110grn or Merlin 110grn? Any idea of muzzle velocity?
ATB

I was using virtus Merlin’s with an mv of around 2800. I never chrono’d it but that’s about where the data suggest it would be. Just to be clear I think they are really well made bullets, super accurate and easy to load for. It’s just once you’ve got used to the low carcass damage of the Barnes type bullets, these fragmenters seem a bit over the top.

 

[Heym SR20]

Don’t you ever go on!

So everyone that’s been shooting vermin, rats, rabbits & foxes in the last 40 years has been breaking the WCA!

Probably. And there have been an awful lot of studies published recently showing that birds of prey found dead have died of lead poisoning. The only source of ingested lead is in their diet of dead animals and birds.

So you go out this evening shooting lots of rabbits and foxes with your lead bullets and leave in the field for the buzzards to clear up.

Some troublesome villagers who dissaprove of you shooting bunny rabbits take a video of you shooting the rabbits. Pick up some carcasses and analyse them showing lead. Then video of buzzards and badgers eating them.

You are then prosecuted by a well funded group for knowing left carcasses with lead poison in them in places where they can be consumed by protected birds and animals. As part of prosecution they call as witnesses those who have done the studies on lead poisoning of birds of prey. “Tell me Professor would 2 grams of lead fragments from a rifle bullet shot by Mr Sharp 25 that remain in the carcass cause harm to the golden eagle thst was filmed snacking on this carcass as we produced in the video shown earlier”. Etc etc.

How would you mount a defence. Lead is not a poisonous substance. You didn’t shoot the rabbit deliberately. You did not choose deliberately to leave it there. You did gralloch the deer and leave the hearty and lungs were they could be consumed by wild animals etc

Yes we have been shooting and leaving grallochs, rabbits etc all shot lead for the last 100 years. But should we continue doing so?

The wording in Section 5

Prohibition of certain methods of killing or taking wild birds.S​

(1)Subject to the provisions of this Part, if any person—

(a)sets in position any of the following articles, being an article which is of such a nature and is so placed as to be likely to cause bodily injury to any wild bird coming into contact therewith, that is to say, any springe, trap, gin, snare, hook and line, any electrical device for killing, stunning or frightening or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance

Shall be guilty of an offence


The wordings in Section 11 - Prohibitions of certain methods of taking or killing wild animals.

Subject to the provisions of this Part, a person shall be guilty of an offence if that person—

c)sets in position any electrical device for killing or stunning, or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance, of such a nature and so placed as to be—

(i)in England and Wales, calculated to cause bodily injury to any wild animal included in Schedule 6;

(ii)in Scotland, likely to cause bodily injury to any such wild animal


Note the words used are “likely”. Albeit in England for wild animals the word “calculated” is used which does infer a bit of a diliberate nature.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Probably. And there have been an awful lot of studies published recently showing that birds of prey found dead have died of lead poisoning. The only source of ingested lead is in their diet of dead animals and birds.

So you go out this evening shooting lots of rabbits and foxes with your lead bullets and leave in the field for the buzzards to clear up.

Some troublesome villagers who dissaprove of you shooting bunny rabbits take a video of you shooting the rabbits. Pick up some carcasses and analyse them showing lead. Then video of buzzards and badgers eating them.

You are then prosecuted by a well funded group for knowing left carcasses with lead poison in them in places where they can be consumed by protected birds and animals. As part of prosecution they call as witnesses those who have done the studies on lead poisoning of birds of prey. “Tell me Professor would 2 grams of lead fragments from a rifle bullet shot by Mr Sharp 25 that remain in the carcass cause harm to the golden eagle thst was filmed snacking on this carcass as we produced in the video shown earlier”. Etc etc.

How would you mount a defence. Lead is not a poisonous substance. You didn’t shoot the rabbit deliberately. You did not choose deliberately to leave it there. You did gralloch the deer and leave the hearty and lungs were they could be consumed by wild animals etc

Yes we have been shooting and leaving grallochs, rabbits etc all shot lead for the last 100 years. But should we continue doing so?

The wording in Section 5

Prohibition of certain methods of killing or taking wild birds.S​

(1)Subject to the provisions of this Part, if any person—

(a)sets in position any of the following articles, being an article which is of such a nature and is so placed as to be likely to cause bodily injury to any wild bird coming into contact therewith, that is to say, any springe, trap, gin, snare, hook and line, any electrical device for killing, stunning or frightening or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance

Shall be guilty of an offence


The wordings in Section 11 - Prohibitions of certain methods of taking or killing wild animals.

Subject to the provisions of this Part, a person shall be guilty of an offence if that person—

c)sets in position any electrical device for killing or stunning, or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance, of such a nature and so placed as to be—

(i)in England and Wales, calculated to cause bodily injury to any wild animal included in Schedule 6;

(ii)in Scotland, likely to cause bodily injury to any such wild animal


Note the words used are “likely”. Albeit in England for wild animals the word “calculated” is used which does infer a bit of a diliberate nature.

Yeh mate, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick on that one and you're looking wayyyy to deep in to it.

You will likely find that's for deliberate poisoning - eg setting an area with poison to deliberately kill whatever it may be.

If you leave something dead out and an animal (as unlikely and rare as it happens) eats it and dies, you've not done it deliberately with the INTENTION to kill other animals whereas with a poison bait station as an example you have shown intent.

And again, it still stands it's the same for copper too

 

[Heym SR20]

This is one of those joke posts isn’t it. Hopefully I get to lace a few foxes with known toxins tonight

Not to mention the fact that if you did test the gralloch or vermin or rabbit for lead fragments how could it be proven that these are from the bullets that the shooter was using? Ballistic lab? This is all sounding rather costly suddenly. And it has to be remembered that our police don’t even have the budget to attend unfolding crimes. Let alone go around putting buckets of old gralloch through ballistics labs looking for a bullet which has been designed to fragment into thousands of pieces. Or if it’s been shot with a shotgun it can’t be tracked anyway sadly, just look at all the birds of prey that have been killed by delinquents who get away with it.

I’m sure to the letter of the law you’re probably right Heym, but surely a bit of common sense tells you this will never happen? It’s all sounding a bit silly.

As for proof. “So Mr ACM, are you the only deer control manager on xyz piece of land?

“Yes”

“So according to your shooting logs, examination of your phone and the log from the game dealer you shot 3 deer on that land on the 15 th February.”

“Yes”

“Our previous witness showed evidence of gut piles found at the noted positions on your map. Where these the grallochs from your beasts you shot. “

“No “

“But how do you just now said you are the only person to shoot on that land? Is that correct”

“Err - it must have been poachers. “

“So how do you explain DNA samples from deer with your tag in larder and from the grallochs all matching?”

“Errr”

“Now you are experienced deer stalker”

“Yes of course”

“And you a good shot?”

“Absolutely - yes i can shoot a 1” group at 300m all day long.”

“So you have no trouble placing a bullet into the kill zone of a deer”

“Have been doing it since I was a boy”

“So those three deer you deliberately took careful aim and put the bullet through the heart and lungs”

“Oh absolutely “

“So just to be clear it was no accident that your bullet went through the heart and lungs which were left out by you on the hill”

“No of course, somebody else must have put them there ….”

“and on the evening of 3rd March you shot and laced several fragments of lead bullets”

“Err”

“Well let me jog your memory - on the stalking directory you are Mr ACM are you not?”

As for determining lead fragments - well its a simple test - either an x ray, or simple chemical test that can be done in a school laboratory.

Frankly once you have seen a lead shot, versus a monolithic bullet shot animal you can easily tell the difference.

And these days the country side is full of people with lots of recording devices.

 

[takbok]

@Heym SR20 you've lost the plot, you need to get out more

 

[Acm]

@Heym SR20 you've lost the plot, you need to get out more

Or perhaps it’s better for everyone if he actually gets out much less. Particularly when armed. Mad as a March hare.

 

[phillips321]

As for proof. “So Mr ACM, are you the only deer control manager on xyz piece of land?

“Yes”

“So according to your shooting logs, examination of your phone and the log from the game dealer you shot 3 deer on that land on the 15 th February.”

“Yes”

“Our previous witness showed evidence of gut piles found at the noted positions on your map. Where these the grallochs from your beasts you shot. “

“No “

“But how do you just now said you are the only person to shoot on that land? Is that correct”

“Err - it must have been poachers. “

“So how do you explain DNA samples from deer with your tag in larder and from the grallochs all matching?”

“Errr”

“Now you are experienced deer stalker”

“Yes of course”

“And you a good shot?”

“Absolutely - yes i can shoot a 1” group at 300m all day long.”

“So you have no trouble placing a bullet into the kill zone of a deer”

“Have been doing it since I was a boy”

“So those three deer you deliberately took careful aim and put the bullet through the heart and lungs”

“Oh absolutely “

“So just to be clear it was no accident that your bullet went through the heart and lungs which were left out by you on the hill”

“No of course, somebody else must have put them there ….”

“and on the evening of 3rd March you shot and laced several fragments of lead bullets”

“Err”

“Well let me jog your memory - on the stalking directory you are Mr ACM are you not?”

As for determining lead fragments - well its a simple test - either an x ray, or simple chemical test that can be done in a school laboratory.

Frankly once you have seen a lead shot, versus a monolithic bullet shot animal you can easily tell the difference.

And these days the country side is full of people with lots of recording devices.

Someone needs to have a hard look at how they use their time....

 

[25 Sharps]

Probably. And there have been an awful lot of studies published recently showing that birds of prey found dead have died of lead poisoning. The only source of ingested lead is in their diet of dead animals and birds.

So you go out this evening shooting lots of rabbits and foxes with your lead bullets and leave in the field for the buzzards to clear up.

Some troublesome villagers who dissaprove of you shooting bunny rabbits take a video of you shooting the rabbits. Pick up some carcasses and analyse them showing lead. Then video of buzzards and badgers eating them.

You are then prosecuted by a well funded group for knowing left carcasses with lead poison in them in places where they can be consumed by protected birds and animals. As part of prosecution they call as witnesses those who have done the studies on lead poisoning of birds of prey. “Tell me Professor would 2 grams of lead fragments from a rifle bullet shot by Mr Sharp 25 that remain in the carcass cause harm to the golden eagle thst was filmed snacking on this carcass as we produced in the video shown earlier”. Etc etc.

How would you mount a defence. Lead is not a poisonous substance. You didn’t shoot the rabbit deliberately. You did not choose deliberately to leave it there. You did gralloch the deer and leave the hearty and lungs were they could be consumed by wild animals etc

Yes we have been shooting and leaving grallochs, rabbits etc all shot lead for the last 100 years. But should we continue doing so?

The wording in Section 5

Prohibition of certain methods of killing or taking wild birds.S​

(1)Subject to the provisions of this Part, if any person—

(a)sets in position any of the following articles, being an article which is of such a nature and is so placed as to be likely to cause bodily injury to any wild bird coming into contact therewith, that is to say, any springe, trap, gin, snare, hook and line, any electrical device for killing, stunning or frightening or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance

Shall be guilty of an offence


The wordings in Section 11 - Prohibitions of certain methods of taking or killing wild animals.

Subject to the provisions of this Part, a person shall be guilty of an offence if that person—

c)sets in position any electrical device for killing or stunning, or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance, of such a nature and so placed as to be—

(i)in England and Wales, calculated to cause bodily injury to any wild animal included in Schedule 6;

(ii)in Scotland, likely to cause bodily injury to any such wild animal


Note the words used are “likely”. Albeit in England for wild animals the word “calculated” is used which does infer a bit of a diliberate nature.

I read that as it being an intentional act to try and kill a bird, as most other people would.

If you leave something where it falls you are not setting it out and it is not intentional.

 

[Heym SR20]

I read that as it being an intentional act to try and kill a bird, as most other people would.

If you leave something where it falls you are not setting it out and it is not intentional.

So you don’t intend to shoot the animal then?? You make a conscious decision to shoot it. You make a conscious decision to leave it.

Or are you actually saying you give no thought whatsoever before and when you squeeze the trigger?

 

[25 Sharps]

This is one of those joke posts isn’t it. Hopefully I get to lace a few foxes with known toxins tonight

Not to mention the fact that if you did test the gralloch or vermin or rabbit for lead fragments how could it be proven that these are from the bullets that the shooter was using? Ballistic lab? This is all sounding rather costly suddenly. And it has to be remembered that our police don’t even have the budget to attend unfolding crimes. Let alone go around putting buckets of old gralloch through ballistics labs looking for a bullet which has been designed to fragment into thousands of pieces. Or if it’s been shot with a shotgun it can’t be tracked anyway sadly, just look at all the birds of prey that have been killed by delinquents who get away with it.

I’m sure to the letter of the law you’re probably right Heym, but surely a bit of common sense tells you this will never happen? It’s all sounding a bit silly.

Did you get to lace any foxes??