Firearms Bill 2023

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scotch_egg

scotch_egg

Well-Known Member
Supporter
I have just been made aware of the Firearms Bill 2023.

The first part regards miniature rifle ranges.

The second part is what is concerning. This is about possession of component parts the manufacture ammunition.

Basically as it reads if you have the components to manufacture more ammunition than stated on your FAC you will be committing an offence.

Any way have a read and discuss. Has it been interpreted correctly?

 
scotch_egg said:
The second part is what is concerning. This is about possession of component parts the manufacture ammunition.

Basically as it reads if you have the components to manufacture more ammunition than stated on your FAC you will be committing an offence.
Click to expand...

Is it in regards to an FAC holder or if in possession of these items as a non FAC holder with intent to manufacture?

Im not familiar what in is the act already regarding possession of these components.
 
Morkai said:
Is it in regards to an FAC holder or if in possession of these items as a non FAC holder with intent to manufacture?

Im not familiar what in is the act already regarding possession of these components.
Click to expand...

It doesn’t appear to make any differentiation between FAC holder and non FAC holder.

So will the component parts form part of your total ammunition allowance. Anything greater and you commit the offence as an FAC holder.
 
scotch_egg said:
It doesn’t appear to make any differentiation between FAC holder and non FAC holder.

So will the component parts form part of your total ammunition allowance. Anything greater and you commit the offence as an FAC holder.
Click to expand...
Sorry, it referred to section 1. Just had another look.

Screenshot_20230315-200557_Drive.webp

And section 1 (b) reads -

to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, any ammunition to which this section applies without holding a firearm certificate in force at the time, or otherwise than as authorised by such a certificate, or in quantities in excess of those so authorised.

So, I think you may be correct.
 
I thought this one had already been around for a while…? I seem to recall responding to a consultation on these topics last year…

That said - are they really saying that if you don’t have an FAC you can buy as many bullet heads and brass as you want, but if you do have an FAC you’re restricted to 600 or whatever? How does that work? Or are we now going to have to supply an FAC to buy brass and bullets?

Oh and I can make more than 600 rounds with a single tub of powder - so what do I do there? Ask the RFD to decant out exactly 600x75.6gn of powder and keep the rest?

Or primers which are typically sold by the 1000….?

This is just yet more badly worded and poorly thought out legislation from some random MP trying to make a name for themselves that isn’t going to make it into law because it’s entirely unworkable.

I’m pretty sure this is part of an earlier consultation which asked about making reloading components FAC only and imposing more restrictions on mini ranges - I’m also pretty sure the key words are “with intent to manufacture” as it pertains to unlicensed people making ammo for illegal purposes. This is coming back to me now, and I’m pretty sure that was what this relates to.

It’s also a private members bill (ie I thought of it and want to try and wedge it in) as opposed to anything more legitimate, and it’s yet to get to the Lords.
 
Possessing component parts of ammunition with intent to manufacture
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) the person has in their possession any component parts of
ammunition (see subsection (2)),
(b) the person intends to manufacture ammunition to which section
1 applies using those parts, and
(c) were the person to do so—
(i) possession of the ammunition by the person would
constitute an offence under section 1, or
(ii) the manufacture or possession of the ammunition by
the person would constitute an offence under section
3.
(2) For the purposes of this section the component parts of ammunition
are—
(a) bullet;
(b) cartridge case;
(c) primer;
(d) propellant.

That's what it says. So what does that mean for an FAC-holding reloader?
1a - yes, I have in my possession all the component parts in abundance. Enough, certainly, to make way more ammunition than I'm lawfully allowed to possess at any one time
1b - yes, I definitely intend to use the components to manufacture S1 ammunition.
1ci - Phew! I definitely do not intend to make ammunition the possession of which would constitute an offence under either S1 or S3.

So I will not have committed any offence.

That's my reading of it, anyhow.
 
Dalua said:
Possessing component parts of ammunition with intent to manufacture
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) the person has in their possession any component parts of
ammunition (see subsection (2)),
(b) the person intends to manufacture ammunition to which section
1 applies using those parts, and
(c) were the person to do so—
(i) possession of the ammunition by the person would
constitute an offence under section 1, or
(ii) the manufacture or possession of the ammunition by
the person would constitute an offence under section
3.
(2) For the purposes of this section the component parts of ammunition
are—
(a) bullet;
(b) cartridge case;
(c) primer;
(d) propellant.

That's what it says. So what does that mean for an FAC-holding reloader?
1a - yes, I have in my possession all the component parts in abundance. Enough, certainly, to make way more ammunition than I'm lawfully allowed to possess at any one time
1b - yes, I definitely intend to use the components to manufacture S1 ammunition.
1ci - Phew! I definitely do not intend to make ammunition the possession of which would constitute an offence under either S1 or S3.

So I will not have committed any offence.

That's my reading of it, anyhow.
Click to expand...
Agreed - it’s the “intent to manufacture”. Exceeding my FAC allowance is an offence which I don’t intend to commit 👍🏻
 
As I read it, one of the amendments to it is to make air guns Section 5.
The minister responsible appears to have committed to licensing costs being borne entirely by the applicant.
It is a private member's bill, so I don't know what its chances of becoming law are.
I hope BASC are all over the detail of this.
 
stubear said:
I’m also pretty sure the key words are “with intent to manufacture” as it pertains to unlicensed people making ammo for illegal purposes. This is coming back to me now, and I’m pretty sure that was what this relates to.
Click to expand...
Thats what how I read it.
 
You know if the people who dream up these bills actually understood the existing laws it would save them writing laws on top of laws. 😡. If somebody is in possession of shooters powder without an explosives licence or one of the exemptions i.e FAC, SGC or RFD they are breaking the law, Explosive regulations 2014, no proof of intent is need the very fact they posses the shooters powder is illegal, take them to court, find them guilty and lock them up for five years, simple.

As it is proving intent may be an issue, yes officer i have hundreds of cases and bullets because i am a collector of such and no licence is required to acquire or posses them, shut the door on your way out.

edit to add very few private members bills actually get past.
 
This has passed both first and second readings and has now gone to the committee that scrutinises the bill line by line. That means that this bill is likely to become law in some form or another.



SD Members will then need to cut and paste this, below, into a search engine to see the completed committee stage report. You can then see a dowloadble PDF of the committee report. And how many were on that committee of the many that BASC hosted at its driven days at Catton Hall?

Public Bill Committee. FIREARMS BILL. Wednesday 15 March 2023
 
Last edited:
The committee stage is where most amendments are proposed and either accepted or rejected. I would hope it would come out of that stage amended to make it clear that, as at present, FAC holders can hold all the components needed to manufacture ammunition for which they have authorisation and can manufacture such ammunition up to the limit(s) permitted on their certificate

Cheers

Bruce
 
mealiejimmy said:
The committee stage is where most amendments are proposed and either accepted or rejected. I would hope it would come out of that stage amended to make it clear that, as at present, FAC holders can hold all the components needed to manufacture ammunition for which they have authorisation and can manufacture such ammunition up to the limit(s) permitted on their certificate

Cheers

Bruce
Click to expand...
They’re that common sense thing again which does not appear to be very common when applied to gun ownership in this country.
 
I wouldn't say this is too bad really. I've just dug out the BASC press release from when the Govt first consulted on this, it included:

1. Increased security rules for 50cals/HMEs.
2. Requiring a FAC for operation of a miniature rifle range and prohibiting semi-autos from being used on such ranges.
3. Increasing the age at which an airgun can be used unsupervised to 18.
4. An offence of intending to manufacture ammunition you aren't entitled to possess.

More here: Home Office firearms safety consultation - BASC

As to 1, I believe they've already done that by requiring level 3 security (which was less onerous than some of their other proposals, e.g. storage at an RFD).

While 2 looks to be being implemented, they've dropped the semi-auto restriction and there are no other restrictions beyond the operator needing a FAC (I recall there was a bit in the consultation that implied they might consider other restrictions in addition to this). All in, I don't think simply requiring the operator to have a FAC is too bad when there was the potential for no semi autos and possibly the removal of some of the other exemptions mini rifle ranges enjoy. I understand rifle clubs get a free club FAC. While I imagine mini ranges won't qualify for this, there is clearly a process in existence for granting FACs to possess club guns which ought to migrate over to mini ranges fairly easily.

3 doesn't appear to be in there, which is great as that would be very bad news for lots of youngsters getting started.

4 is happening, and the stated intention of the legislation shouldn't hurt legitimate reloaders as it was expressed as only applying if the person intends to manufacture ammunition they aren't authorised to possess. However, I'm a little concerned about how this is worded. Viewed in isolation, and with a very unsympathetic judge, it could cause a problem. If we consider the requirements for the offence in the circumstance of a legitimate reloader who possesses the means to manufacture unauthorised quantities but does not intend to do so, then:

s3A(1)(a) - satisfied as all four components listed in s3A(2) would be possessed.
s3A(1)(b) - could be satisfied depending on how it's interpreted (more below).
s3A(1)(c)(i) - would be satisfied as they will have (in this example) more components than they can possess as assembled ammo.

The issue with s3A(1)(b) is I could see two ways of interpreting it. The first is the way we're told this is meant to be interpreted, that the "intention" would need be the intention to manufacture ammunition in excess of that authorised/not authorised at all. This wouldn't concern the legitimate reloader. The second approach would be to interpret "intention" more broadly as "intends to manufacture ammunition from those components" with no qualification that the person only intends to do this when it would be legal. This broader approach would catch the legitimate reloader as the intention would be present and, if carried out at that moment, would lead to unauthorised amounts. This problem arises because s3A(1)(c) doesn't specify at what time that part of the test is to be applied.

I'd think the first approach to intention is the most likely, as the result of the second approach would appear absurd. However, the issue is that the legislation will be interpreted by police, CPS lawyers and judges who may struggle to comprehend why the legitimate reloader would possess the means to manufacture unauthorised ammunition if they don't intend to do so.

I think an improved wording should be pushed for by the relevant orgs and if @Conor O'Gorman reads this, I'd hope BASC can consider this. I'd think further subsection would suffice, if it made clear that "intention" must be an intention to manufacture in breach s1/s3.
 
stubear said:
Agreed - it’s the “intent to manufacture”. Exceeding my FAC allowance is an offence which I don’t intend to commit 👍🏻
Click to expand...

I believe you are correct and have hit the nail on the head. It would be down to proving the mens rea or criminal intent. So therefore with an FAC we all could at this time load more ammunition with the components exceeding the allowance on current FAC’s, but don’t as we are law abiding citizens and comply with the conditions.

This Bill would make it easier for the authorities to build a case on illicit ammunition factories ran by unscrupulous persons supplying the underworld with ammunition. There would need to be further evidence to corroborate any suspicions that anyone in possession of brass and bullets had the men’s rea to manufacture ammunition other than they are authorised to possess.

I don’t think we will see any further restrictions on the component parts such as brass or bullets. There are already steps in place to prevent the layman readily coming into possession of primers and powder.
 
Dalua said:
That's what it says. So what does that mean for an FAC-holding reloader?
1a - yes, I have in my possession all the component parts in abundance. Enough, certainly, to make way more ammunition than I'm lawfully allowed to possess at any one time
1b - yes, I definitely intend to use the components to manufacture S1 ammunition.
1ci - Phew! I definitely do not intend to make ammunition the possession of which would constitute an offence under either S1 or S3.
Click to expand...
This.

As an FAC holder you can have what components you like - provided your never 'intend' to manufacture more ammunition that you are permitted to possess under the terms of your FAC.

Proving 'intent' for any offence, is a very high bar to go over (for any piece of legislation).

Now...

Unknown-39.webp
 
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