National wild venison standard

[big ears]

Its early days yet but anything that promotes venison to the British consumer is progress in my mind. Yes, if the scheme is successful it might disadvantage some who elect to not to participate in it but that's entirely their choice. Given the FC are subsidising the introduction bringing the lower tier producer's cost down to £115 (if I recollect correctly), are they really that short-sighted? IMHO, this equates to 2 x fallow or 4 x roe carcasses and for me, that's an acceptable cost if the public elect to buy more of my venison. I'm going to give it a try and will form my own opinion downstream. Those naysayers decrying it now are potentially doing a "King Canute" in my opinion. The venison market doesn't work well for the majority of small producers now and given the explosion in deer numbers and the need to more proactively promote increased public consumption, an initiative like this could be a very positive step in the right direction.

Ask yourself this before you sign up.

Why is there an explosion in deer numbers?

Will this scheme make it easier for the average stalker to sell his venison at a price to cover costs?

For me the answer to the first is that people are sitting on huge tracts of land and not doing the job of deer management correctly. This is nothing to do with resale value it’s simply either they are against shooting and see their land as a safe haven or they go around and sign up loads of permissions they cannot properly manage. Sadly I wager quite a few on here might fall into that last category.

To the second as everyone has said GD rates will not go up, cost will so in effect a reduction in the value of your venison. Unless there is a reward for managing your deer properly.

The answer is not more bureaucracy but to make it beholden on the land owner to prove effective deer management and fine them if they don’t.

Yet again the bloke at the bottom gets a raw deal.

 

[big ears]

I can envisage farmers and landowners being told that in order to claim these enhancements they must use a stalker who's certified to the new National Standard. From that, it's but a short step to saying "contact us for a list of suitable service providers in your area", and hey presto! It's bye-bye to the small-scale recreational stalker.

Exactly this.

 

[75]

Its early days yet but anything that promotes venison to the British consumer is progress in my mind.

Agreed wholeheartedly. And also to this:

The venison market doesn't work well for the majority of small producers now

I think I've sold a dozen or so reds this year. Nothing for a few weeks then 3 in the larder at once. Very hard to plan. There is no game dealer nearby a folk generally don't want a whole 75kg carcase so it's been a combination of butchered and sold directly, farm shops etc. All time consuming compared to dropping them in a game dealer. Anything that helped move them easily would be welcomed.

What I struggle with is this new standard doesn't seem to add anything that the current regs don't cover. So I have already gone through all the hoops once but very few others seem to bother and no one enforces them. So why should I fork out £110 (which will quickly become £300 when the subsidy from FC dries up) for nothing additional?

If a) everyone was complying with current regs and b) this added something more then I'd be first to sign up to it!

 

[wytonpjs]

Why is there an explosion in deer numbers?

For me the answer to the first is that people are sitting on huge tracts of land and not doing the job of deer management correctly. This is nothing to do with resale value it’s simply either they are against shooting and see their land as a safe haven or they go around and sign up loads of permissions they cannot properly manage. Sadly I wager quite a few on here might fall into that last category.

See my post #46 above - I agree completely and its not being lost on Natural England, the Forestry Commission and DEFRA. Time will tell but there was open talk of forestry grants being linked active deer management and powers similiar to SNH to compel landowners to reduce numbers. Way above my pay grade but it was refreshing to hear the issues being acknowledged, discussed and hopefully co-ordinated action being proposed.

I see this non-culling issue as being seperate to the public perception and consumption of venison. Action on both is needed if the Governments aspirations on woodland creation, carbon reduction and land stewardship are to be fully realised.

 

[DevonRedDeer]

The assurance company will lure you in on an easy level on the 1st inspection but on annual inspection thereafter will make you spend money on silly so called improvements,the paperwork will also increase every year and some of it at the moment on the farm assurance system is simply ridiculous,you will always be under threat from them of your ability to sell withdraw,they are very much like bullies,so be careful what you wish for.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Indeed, but I can envisage farmers and landowners being told that in order to claim these enhancements they must use a stalker who's certified to the new National Standard. From that, it's but a short step to saying "contact us for a list of suitable service providers in your area", and hey presto! It's bye-bye to the small-scale recreational stalker.

Not before too long the local village halls will be getting more business, 'come along to our evening on deer management in your area, here are a list of service providers in your area' and screw the person already stalking there, you need us!

The ultimate result will be a population explosion of deer more so than we observed post Covid

 

[HunterMoore]

Whilst I accept that there must be a number of "hobby" stalkers managing 1000's of acres and not culling enough, where I am its far too many stalkers with very small parcels of woods and farmland that are really impossible to manage properly ..... so perhaps some advantage to try and manage these small plots as larger areas somehow which will not happen without some external impetus?

 

[VSS]

Whilst I accept that there must be a number of "hobby" stalkers managing 1000's of acres and not culling enough, where I am its far too many stalkers with very small parcels of woods and farmland that are really impossible to manage properly ..... so perhaps some advantage to try and manage these small plots as larger areas somehow which will not happen without some external impetus?

I wonder if several of those small-scale stalkers could club together, call themselves a DMG, and register for the new scheme as a single entity? Lower membership fee per person, and all would benefit. Just a thought.

 

[baguio]

Not before too long the local village halls will be getting more business, 'come along to our evening on deer management in your area, here are a list of service providers in your area' and screw the person already stalking there, you need us!

The ultimate result will be a population explosion of deer more so than we observed post Covid

I'm sorry but you really do appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder. I have a pretty low opinion of the average hobby stalker. Deer numbers are out of control because of them and not despite them. One for the pot isn't good enough. I spend my time trying to curb immigration from the boundaries of most of my stalking land because the guy next door does next to nothing but won't give it up or let someone else give him/her a hand. The hobby stalker likes to be successful regularly so is happy with a high deer density. Not surprisingly, those deer leak out to less dense areas. The hobby stalker then moans that next door is shooting his deer or the farmer has booted him off or allowed someone else to 'help out'. Most people don't know the half of it but that's how it is across the country and that's why something needs to be done and people who lose stalking sure as hell aren't going to like it.

 

[big ears]

Whilst I accept that there must be a number of "hobby" stalkers managing 1000's of acres and not culling enough, where I am its far too many stalkers with very small parcels of woods and farmland that are really impossible to manage properly ..... so perhaps some advantage to try and manage these small plots as larger areas somehow which will not happen without some external impetus?

But taking them off the resident stalkers is not the right way surely?
Working with and educating the existing stalkers must be the best.
That is unless you benefit from taking over the other stalkers land.

 

[baguio]

I wonder if several of those small-scale stalkers could club together, call themselves a DMG, and register for the new scheme as a single entity? Lower membership fee per person, and all would benefit. Just a thought.

Never going to happen it. None of them will want to share.

 

[big ears]

I'm sorry but you really do appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder. I have a pretty low opinion of the average hobby stalker. Deer numbers are out of control because of them and not despite them. One for the pot isn't good enough. I spend my time trying to curb immigration from the boundaries of most of my stalking land because the guy next door does next to nothing but won't give it up or let someone else give him/her a hand. The hobby stalker likes to be successful regularly so is happy with a high deer density. Not surprisingly, those deer leak out to less dense areas. The hobby stalker then moans that next door is shooting his deer or the farmer has booted him off or allowed someone else to 'help out'. Most people don't know the half of it but that's how it is across the country and that's why something needs to be done and people who lose stalking sure as hell aren't going to like it.

Like that in the SW as well. See what you are talking about all the time. Farmers land trashed by large herds of deer. Stalker not willing to share but lives miles away and only on land very infrequently.
Make it the land owner’s responsibility and fine them if they don’t do it and all you describe will disappear.

 

[devon deer stalker]

Think before you post @baguio , I'm a full-time deer stalker, I do not have any chips on my shoulder, you my friend have no idea how corrupt some people are in this game, or have any experience of what has happened in the south west in the past, so stop the silly comments as that tends to lead to a thread being locked, and we have yet to have any input from the 'organisations'

 

[baguio]

Think before you post @baguio , I'm a full-time deer stalker, I do not have any chips on my shoulder, you my friend have no idea how corrupt some people are in this game, or have any experience of what has happened in the south west in the past, so stop the silly comments as that tends to lead to a thread being locked, and we have yet to have any input from the 'organisations'

That's exactly how you come across and it's exactly why we have such a deer population problem. Full time managers keeping populations overly high to keep customers happy and keep the tips rolling in also also have a role in it. You don't have to like it or agree but it's fact around my way! Big Ears #73 certainly has the same issues around his way. You only think my comment is silly because you don't like it and not because I'm wrong!

 

[75]

That's exactly how you come across and it's exactly why we have such a deer population problem. Full time managers keeping populations overly high to keep customers happy and keep the tips rolling in also also have a role in it. You don't have to like it or agree but it's fact around my way! Big Ears #73 certainly has the same issues around his way. You only think my comment is silly because you don't like it and not because I'm wrong!

I think you really are way out of order here and haven't got a clue what you're talking about. But then that's not the first time you've shown that on this forum. Back on the ignore list you go

 

[baguio]

I think you really are way out of order here and haven't got a clue what you're talking about. But then that's not the first time you've shown that on this forum. Back on the ignore list you go

Here we go. Didn't think that you and your abuse would be far away

. The truth often offends I'm afraid.

 

[HunterMoore]

But taking them off the resident stalkers is not the right way surely?
Working with and educating the existing stalkers must be the best.
That is unless you benefit from taking over the other stalkers land.

Frankly I don't know what the solution is ..... the badger cull down here introduced the concept of unfamiliar faces shooting over farmers land and I don't personally know of any angst directly as a result.

However, the land owners (primarily farmers) have friends they trust and that counts for a lot down here ... as far as I can see there is currently no incentive for stalkers to band together and form DMG's for the greater good of deer management and no real mechanism to get it started.

 

[devon deer stalker]

That's exactly how you come across and it's exactly why we have such a deer population problem. Full time managers keeping populations overly high to keep customers happy and keep the tips rolling in also also have a role in it. You don't have to like it or agree but it's fact around my way! Big Ears #73 certainly has the same issues around his way. You only think my comment is silly because you don't like it and not because I'm wrong!

You really are a complete twit, you have no idea, like @75 you are on my ignore list, types like you drag this forum down.

 

[GeorgeC]

Its early days yet but anything that promotes venison to the British consumer is progress in my mind. Yes, if the scheme is successful it might disadvantage some who elect to not to participate in it but that's entirely their choice. Given the FC are subsidising the introduction bringing the lower tier producer's cost down to £115 (if I recollect correctly), are they really that short-sighted? IMHO, this equates to 2 x fallow or 4 x roe carcasses and for me, that's an acceptable cost if the public elect to buy more of my venison. I'm going to give it a try and will form my own opinion downstream. Those naysayers decrying it now are potentially doing a "King Canute" in my opinion. The venison market doesn't work well for the majority of small producers now and given the explosion in deer numbers and the need to more proactively promote increased public consumption, an initiative like this could be a very positive step in the right direction.

I hear your point of view, and yes I am one of the naysayers. Unfortunately your missing the key point, that is the membership will be annual and, in time, unsubsidised. Also the audits will not be free so whilst £115 sounds fair at this point I doubt that it will be palatable in the future.

ETA: I would like to also add I know people who already supply supermarkets, via game dealers, using the current system, and without issue [apart from non lead]. Venison is sold in the major supermarkets at around £30 / kg [Lidl was slightly cheaper]; people will not pay more and nor will they likely buy more because you have an audit.

In my opinion, this system is going to be more onerous than having a resturant or takeaway.

 

[Woodenbeam]

Big deep breaths all, it’s only an internet forum
Everybodies an expert in their own right & nobodies wrong we all just do things a little different
Deer numbers are on the up but I think the headline grabbers in Scotland have made the press/public more aware & green carbon initiatives are now influencing. We’ve a good head of deer around me in Suffolk but other than a couple of herds of fallow it’s hardly a population explosion.The fallow do need some control but people/landowners are now more aware so it will be rectified (in season).
Everything else carries on as norm so why the need for National change, unless for someone’s benefit is beyond me.