National wild venison standard

[big ears]

Whilst this is a bit tongue in cheek (probably only a bit!) there is some truth in it. Not so much the "handful of muppets" but more the way SD discussion always degenerates.

Someone from the FC made contact with me directly and I spoke to him earlier today. It wouldn't be appropriate to share the contents of a personal call but suffice to say that I feel a lot better after he took the time to speak to me. I've not got the answers I was looking for yet (highlighted earlier in the thread) and am still very much of the view that the current regs aren't enforced so what difference will a new standard make but I've hopefully now opened a dialogue with the FC contact who pulled the whole thing together. I'll feedback on this thread as and when I can.

Assuming it doesn't get locked by then as a result of a load of off topic bitching...

That sounds promising and I hope this discourse with the organisations and the stalkers continues.

Well done to the FC.

As you say at present it feels we are be asked to sign up for something without knowing what exactly it is we are signing up for. Let’s Hope conversations continue in a positive way for all.

They always tell you to read the small print before signing a contract, I worry that the small print hasn’t yet been completely written and we could be lead blindly down a path of which there is no return.

For those who rely on the income from their stalking these are uncertain times.

BE

 

[Taff]

Sorry but I find this all laughable, from this end of the world, you will not see a increase in the price of venison, the market is too small, how many years have they been pushing the wild game theory, and what is the increase in sales ?
If prices rise ? And demand rises you will see ship loads coming from NZ of farmed deer, supermarkets will fill there shelves, most customers only care about price, imagine if venison was the price of chicken how much you would sell.
As to land owners being forced to control deer ? Probably would result in removal of seasons, more night shooting, and Carcasses being buried, hang on if you want to control your deer we can send you some 1080

 

[rem284]

I'm sorry but you really do appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder. I have a pretty low opinion of the average hobby stalker. Deer numbers are out of control because of them and not despite them. One for the pot isn't good enough. I spend my time trying to curb immigration from the boundaries of most of my stalking land because the guy next door does next to nothing but won't give it up or let someone else give him/her a hand. The hobby stalker likes to be successful regularly so is happy with a high deer density. Not surprisingly, those deer leak out to less dense areas. The hobby stalker then moans that next door is shooting his deer or the farmer has booted him off or allowed someone else to 'help out'. Most people don't know the half of it but that's how it is across the country and that's why something needs to be done and people who lose stalking sure as hell aren't going to like it.

It's not only the hobby stalker. The is a problem with some rich landowners who want to have high numbers of deer so when they feel like shooting a beast it is very easy to do so.

To me the words "deer management" is part of the problem. I think it makes some people over think about what actually needs to happen. There is a vast amount of money, time, effort being spent on population models, setting culls, accessing damage levels. This money would be better spent on paying the right men, giving them what they need to get good numbers of deer shot. My management plan is to shoot as many deer as I possibly can on any given day when I am out. I stay within legal parameters and I care about animal welfare but there is only one thing to reduce a population and that is to shoot beyond the maximum sustainable yeald.
How have we got this problem when we have better equipment than we have ever had, more people deer stalking( that's another couple of words that sets people up to not shoot deer).

Phrases I heard that doesn’t help on population control:-

"Don't shoot too many or you will be out of a job"

"I prefer to get in as close as possible, after all it's called deer stalking."

"Sh1t, it's got away because I tried to get another yard closer, doesn’t matter because it's there for another day."

"Awk don't shoot them yet, leave them for a while and they will be fatter"

 

[Muntiacus]

Regarding the British Quality Wild Venison Scheme.

During Spring 2020 I was involved in a meeting where we questioned one of the AGHE's about the downwards spiral of value of venison, we discussed the glut of red deer meat within Europe due to large Government organised within Europe during the Autumn and end of 2019 which crippled the European export market, and the start of a Pandemic and uncertainty of the domestic market. One thing that we always seemed to come back to was the availability of New Zealand venison on the Supermarket shelves, with no space offered for UK venison.

The problem we have, whether we like it or not, is the buyers for the supermarkets will only purchase a product which is quality assured, New Zealand Venison falls into this category.

The working group, which I have been a part of since inception, spoke to these buyers and it was agreed that if we could come up with a workable quality assurance scheme, showing a paper trail of quality, then we would be able to open up this valuable market place.

This is not and will not be compulsory, you will be able to carry on supplying your AGHE in the same way you already do and will not affect you. Certainly this scheme isn't for everyone, to my knowledge only a few of the larger AGHE's will be taking part at the moment, with Forestry England as the first producer of carcasses.

Possibly the greatest problem we have is the enforcement of the current FSA guidance by local authorities, something for us all to work on.

Be assured the BDS has not been part of slipping anything through back doors, we have been proactive in keeping our membership advised of developments in the venison sector through Deer Magazine.

Regards to all
Nick
British Deer Society

 

[devon deer stalker]

To me the words "deer management" is part of the problem. I think it makes some people over think about what actually needs to happen. There is a vast amount of money, time, effort being spent on population models, setting culls, accessing damage levels. This money would be better spent on paying the right men, giving them what they need to get good numbers of deer shot. My management plan is to shoot as many deer as I possibly can on any given day when I am out.

Spot on, if I go out and get the opportunity, I don't stop until I'm empty, deer management, cull targets, no thanks, I have a job to do for the land owner, if the earlier poster on this thread had waited he would have realised that, but he has a chip on his shoulder regarding guides.

As far as red/fallow go we have far too many where I am and we are hardly making a dent in the population.
Night shooting and open season on the stags/bucks will make a difference if the law changes to include it.

How this new scheme will affect things, as far as I can see it won't help reduce numbers, time will tell I guess, more business for NZ deer in the end maybe.

 

[cookingfat]

Regarding the British Quality Wild Venison Scheme.

During Spring 2020 I was involved in a meeting where we questioned one of the AGHE's about the downwards spiral of value of venison, we discussed the glut of red deer meat within Europe due to large Government organised within Europe during the Autumn and end of 2019 which crippled the European export market, and the start of a Pandemic and uncertainty of the domestic market. One thing that we always seemed to come back to was the availability of New Zealand venison on the Supermarket shelves, with no space offered for UK venison.

The problem we have, whether we like it or not, is the buyers for the supermarkets will only purchase a product which is quality assured, New Zealand Venison falls into this category.

The working group, which I have been a part of since inception, spoke to these buyers and it was agreed that if we could come up with a workable quality assurance scheme, showing a paper trail of quality, then we would be able to open up this valuable market place.

This is not and will not be compulsory, you will be able to carry on supplying your AGHE in the same way you already do and will not affect you. Certainly this scheme isn't for everyone, to my knowledge only a few of the larger AGHE's will be taking part at the moment, with Forestry England as the first producer of carcasses.

Possibly the greatest problem we have is the enforcement of the current FSA guidance by local authorities, something for us all to work on.

Be assured the BDS has not been part of slipping anything through back doors, we have been proactive in keeping our membership advised of developments in the venison sector through Deer Magazine.

Regards to all
Nick
British Deer Society

I think you have hit the nail on the head Nick.

Supermarkets are not going to buy our venison unless its with a Scheme like this one!

Yes, local authorities are going to be a bit of the problem.

As a small producer I am contemplating joining this scheme if I am able to get the grant from the FC

Tony

 

[big ears]

I think you have hit the nail on the head Nick.

Supermarkets are not going to buy our venison unless its with a Scheme like this one!

Yes, local authorities are going to be a bit of the problem.

As a small producer I am contemplating joining this scheme if I am able to get the grant from the FC

Tony

Whilst I agree with this in principle the worry is that supermarkets care about one thing. COST.
Involving supermarkets is like sleeping with the devil. The farmers here in the SW know to their cost the power supermarkets have at controlling what they pay to the producer.
If anyone thinks that their venison will be worth more with a red tractor on it then if the supermarkets are involved think again,
The reality is that unless you supply large volumes you will potentially work at a loss.
I’m sure whilst the FC subsidy is working it might just be ok as a small producer. Once this goes and the real cost if the scheme is past on it may not be but you will be so far down the rabbit hole you cannot get out.
Like the best guides on here those costs should be known up front before we sign plus what rate our venison is worth going forwards. At least for the next few years.

 

[Taff]

It’s not FCs money, it’s tax payers, I think I am correct.

 

[75]

Possibly the greatest problem we have is the enforcement of the current FSA guidance by local authorities, something for us all to work on.

I don't think this is the case at all. I have been assessed by the LA as a Registered Food Business but no one in the industry is interested. I have not once been asked by an AGHE for evidence of this, despite it being a regulatory requirement. That is not the place of the LA, the AGHEs should be compliant with the regs and asking for your paperwork.

So why will they ask for evidence of the new, voluntary standard when they don't even ask for evidence of a legal requirement?

it was agreed that if we could come up with a workable quality assurance scheme, showing a paper trail of quality, then we would be able to open up this valuable market place.

This is the bit that I absolutely don't understand. OK, there isn't a scheme that gives you a pretty badge, but we have a perfectly fit for purpose assurance scheme that SHOULD provide a paper trail. It's more than a voluntary scheme, it's a legal framework. The problem isn't that it doesn't exist, the problem is that the industry doesn't use it.

 

[GeorgeC]

I think you have hit the nail on the head Nick.

Supermarkets are not going to buy our venison unless its with a Scheme like this one!

Yes, local authorities are going to be a bit of the problem.

As a small producer I am contemplating joining this scheme if I am able to get the grant from the FC

Tony

Supermarkets already buy venison, through their own audit scheme. They audit with the onus on food safety standards. In my opinion they are unlikely to purchase more as a result of increased independent auditing as there is already a limited market.

If you are all for the scheme, what will happen if the grants are no longer there? Or are not one of the "lucky" FC applicants

 

[75]

As a follow up, just yesterday the NGO were advertising a Wild Game Hygiene Course which covered large game / deer etc, stating:

Successful candidates will be issued with a unique hunters ID number which authorises them to sell game meat to game handling establishments.

Even they are getting it wrong

 

[75]

I'm sorry to bang on about this, but I've just found the time to re-read the standard properly and this is unworkable / pointless for small producers supplying direct or any other route than through a large AGHE.

A supply chain can be made up of one, or all of the above but must pass through an AGHE to be certified as BQWV

So for those of us who have built a local market and increased the value we can get from a carcass - you can't ever get British Quality Wild Venison standard for direct sale! You can only do so by selling to a certified AGHE - the lowest value option. And you must have refrigerated transport to take the carcass from your chiller to the AGHE anyway. How many small producers can do this?

I'm feeling more and more "sold out" by our organisations.

 

[devon deer stalker]

'The working group was set up in May 2020 with the aim of improving customer confidence and market demand, for the benefit of the environment, land managers and producers.'

Totally agree @75 organisations, be they charitable or not, they have it would appear 'sold us out' and their silence is deafening on this thread.
The 'working group' didn't consult us did they?
I don't remember seeing anything, I just don't understand all the cloak and dagger stuff.

 

[VSS]

I'm sorry to bang on about this, but I've just found the time to re-read the standard properly and this is unworkable / pointless for small producers supplying direct or any other route than through a large AGHE.



So for those of us who have built a local market and increased the value we can get from a carcass - you can't ever get British Quality Wild Venison standard for direct sale! You can only do so by selling to a certified AGHE - the lowest value option. And you must have refrigerated transport to take the carcass from your chiller to the AGHE anyway. How many small producers can do this?

I'm feeling more and more "sold out" by our organisations.

View attachment 307946

Having just had another look at the "certified routes" flow chart, it would appear that the following is acceptable:
Stalker > estate larder > processor > consumer.
Therefore, a stalker who has their own larder, and is registered as a food business for direct sales (and is therefore a "processor", could be certified under this scheme for sales to the final consumer. There is no mention of an AGHE in that diagram.
The info about processed products having to go via an AGHE appears to contradict the flow diagram.

If it is saying that all venison must pass through an AGHE for processing in order to be certified then I think this is very poor indeed, and needs looking at again by the organisations that have drafted it.

 

[75]

Therefore, a stalker who has their own larder, and is registered as a food business for direct sales (and is therefore a "processor", could be certified under this scheme for sales to the final consumer. There is no mention of an AGHE in that diagram.
The info about processed products having to go via an AGHE appears to contradict the flow diagram.

Hmm, interesting take on it... The text states:

The types of businesses and business areas identified in this standard are the following:

• Trained person(s) (producer(s)) with regards to hunting and stalking deer
• Deer Larders and Chillers
• AGHEs
• Transporters
• Traders
• Other processors

A supply chain can be made up of one, or all of the above but must pass through an AGHE to be certified as BQWV – see Annex 1

---

Then if you look at Annex 1 there are 2 diagrams - the one I posted above which shows "Routes not certified" which are the Producer -> direct sale options. There is also a second Figure which shows that Producer can go to Local Retailers or Consumers if it first goes through a Processor.

Technically I suppose a small producer could become a Processor but the requirements are quite onerous and clearly aimed at large businesses (references to the "plant", "staff" and "medical screening must be completed for any person assigned to work on and handle meat"). Whilst I have a 5* Food Hygiene for my set up, I couldn't become a "Processor" under this standard.

 

[VSS]

It contradicts itself.
It says that a supply chain can be one off the list, and then says must go through an AGHE. So at least two off the list are required.

 

[fallow me]

Im going to produce a green deer sticker saying this venison is organic and naturally produced and certified by me, stick this to the 100 or so muntjac carcasses i dispatch each year and see if my sales go up, if they do ill start selling stickers on a roll to all stalkers to increase there sales

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC update here:

Quality assurance scheme launched for wild venison - BASC

Applications opened this week for the British Quality Wild Venison (BQWV) standard, which aims to build resilience in the wild venison market.

basc.org.uk

 

[GeorgeC]

Hi Conor

Seems like decisions have already been made.

Could you feedback on some questions please:

1. Who will do the annual assessments? and how much will they cost? Will they need to have formal National approval?
2. Which body is managing the audit / assessment system, content and feedback? and is there an appeal process?
3. Is the system built on the British Retail Consortium current system?
4. Are the detailed requirements regarding the audit going to be published? by this I mean questions, procedure requirements, auditor / producer interaction [day / night / stalk], if it a measure of hygiene [eg gralloching] what happens should the producer not be successful this day?
5. Why is non lead use a particular requirement when it is not currently banned? is it process supermarket or FC driven?
6. With this implementation, will the bodies driving this guarantee an improved price for the future? So that producers etc can see some pay back for their investment in the scheme.
7. How much are the true fees, and how long will you subsidise the smaller stalkers?
8. Before undertaking this change and the presumption that there will be an increase in sales of venison, what marketing was undertaken and is it available?

I'm sure there will be plenty of questions coming from others

Thanks

 

[75]

7. How much are the true fees, and how long will you subsidise the smaller stalkers?

At least BASC have come out and said it:

The scheme is aimed at those producing and dealing with large quantities of venison