Consultation on Secondary Legislation for Deer in Scotland
The BDS was recently asked to comment on the Secondary Legislation for deer in Scotland. Read our response.
bds.org.uk
JCS
BDS response to CONSULTATION ON SECONDARY LEGISLATION FOR DEER IN SCOTLAND
- Thread starter jcampbellsmith
- Start date
bds.org.uk
JCS
Interesting but no real surprise.
The BDS are a charity with a remit for and strap line of “Deer Welfare”.
K
The BDS are a charity with a remit for and strap line of “Deer Welfare”.
K
Agreed,
If this had happened when optical sights were becoming popular, I'm sure the BDS would have found an argument against their use
Ditto when rifles became more popular than bow and arrow and also when bow and arrow became more popular than spears
Cheers
Bruce
If this had happened when optical sights were becoming popular, I'm sure the BDS would have found an argument against their use
Ditto when rifles became more popular than bow and arrow and also when bow and arrow became more popular than spears
Cheers
Bruce
David Barker
Well-Known Member
I believe that to a be a reasonable response i would like all to take the stance that the shooting of male deer at any time will not have any impact on populations in the medium to long turm and it is time that the government took a stance against the slap dash culls of the last 15 years. This has cost the Scottish tax payer 100s of millions and could have been better spent.
Sol
Well-Known Member
Scotland has a huge population of red deer that needs hammered.
England seasons while not perfect are working fine as intended providing shooters with the unique opportunity to take stags and hinds from November onwards.
Does everyone take that opportunity to take a hind? no, but the individuals that do are helping somewhat at least.
Changing Scotland's seasons date to be unrestricted (or in-line with england) Is beneficial in my eyes.
Personally I would shoot hinds If I had the option but most if not all private owned estates in my area lock there rifles up on the 20th and get on with foxing until the roe buck season
at least having an unrestricted season encourages more individuals to get out when hinds are legal to cull and possibly shoot 10-20 even if there targets are stags.
England seasons while not perfect are working fine as intended providing shooters with the unique opportunity to take stags and hinds from November onwards.
Does everyone take that opportunity to take a hind? no, but the individuals that do are helping somewhat at least.
Changing Scotland's seasons date to be unrestricted (or in-line with england) Is beneficial in my eyes.
Personally I would shoot hinds If I had the option but most if not all private owned estates in my area lock there rifles up on the 20th and get on with foxing until the roe buck season
at least having an unrestricted season encourages more individuals to get out when hinds are legal to cull and possibly shoot 10-20 even if there targets are stags.
Why does shooting a deer in the rut, as opposed to any other time of the year, affect its welfare more?
Firstly I'm not saying having no season for males is the right thing to do but I don't see the logic in that argument. How does when you shoot an animal harm the welfare of the animal. A clean shot is a clean shot whether it's in full summer condition, pre rut or recovering after the rut
Yes you may influence the spread of genetics but that has little direct influence on welfare.
"foot dragging" is the phrase that comes to mind. The response to the technical points seems to be based on (wilful?) ignorance. Even the apparently reasonable proposal of establishing a minimum specification for digital thermal or NV sighting devices is actually as nonsensical as requiring a minimum magnification for optical riflescopes or binoculars. It is, and always had been, the shooter's responsibility to ensure their sighting device is zeroed, reliable and provides a sufficiently clear image to make a killing shot.
Why are they so worked up about NV and thermal, when (1) it’s more or less standard for foxing now, and (2) it’s de facto standard for most deer contractors and has been for a few years (even if we all pretend otherwise)?
Don’t see any problem with removing seasons on males. Again, that is just formalising what is already more or less a standard. If you personally have a problem with it, no one is forcing you.
And resistance to lowering the minimum bullet size is just plain recalcitrance for the sake of it.
The whole thing reeks of out of touch Boomers muttering into their porridge.
Don’t see any problem with removing seasons on males. Again, that is just formalising what is already more or less a standard. If you personally have a problem with it, no one is forcing you.
And resistance to lowering the minimum bullet size is just plain recalcitrance for the sake of it.
The whole thing reeks of out of touch Boomers muttering into their porridge.
sikamalc
Administrator
Huge areas of Scotland are owned by large estates, many of which rely on clients to take stags, this then provides income, which employs stalkers, staff in the lodges etc. Clients also spend money locally and in most instances this benefits the local communities.
In areas where I have stalked and managed in the highlands there are big changes. Mostly areas being fenced off for carbon capture
and when I mean areas, we are talking about thousands and thousands of acres.Culling hinds is usually down to the estate stalker and helpers. Not the easiest of tasks, and usually most estates get on with the cull straight after the stag season. January and February can have some bad weather, and stalkers can easily loose a week or two to bad weather.
In England we have a serious problem with Fallow, it has become much worse since the pandemic hit. It restricted many recreational stalkers from going out at a time when many does would have been culled. Also we have areas where they are NOT shot, culled. It has become a real problem in many areas and in the past one hardly ever heard of a night licence being issued in SE England. Now they are common place.
In my opinion Fallow have become more of an issue than Muntjac.
There is no straight forward answer to all of this. Some will agree with taking hinds/does all year round, but then we have a welfare issue, and the public would certainly be up in arms. Extending the hind season in Scotland would be more sensible to mid March? Better to take a hind than leave a calf to starve.
Having no season for male deer is ridiculous, they would be constant bags of nerves…
I agree with most points but do not agree on the minimum bullet weights, anyone who has been around deer know that a lighter bullet than 80 grain can and does do the job.
Regards,
Gixer
I agree with most points but do not agree on the minimum bullet weights, anyone who has been around deer know that a lighter bullet than 80 grain can and does do the job.
Regards,
Gixer
On forestry ground or anywhere with contractor culls, they’re already shot year round.
On private land, no one is forcing anyone to extend their own personal limits.
I actually think extending seasons on males would actually reduce rather than increase stress. Instead of harassing them in the run up and during the rut, they could be left alone, and shot after the rut or even right into spring. An estate could spread its stag bookings out to leave plenty of time in between outings, rather than constantly bother them right as they gear up for the rut.
Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Hmmm.
I am not sure about no impact from the sheer mathematics perspective. A bit like an old 11Plus question:-
“If one stalker can shoot X male deer in Y months how many deer would N stalkers shoot in Y times four months? Would it be:-
1. Less
2. The same
3. More?”
That is how the great unwashed and the Alba “government” would see it - more time out with a rifle so more shot.
Simples only it is not!
Hard to generalise imo from one end of country to another and species also some estates have managed historically their deer better than others depending on circumstances and cash flow and attitudes changed in the last twenty years or so for many reasons rightly or wrongly. Depends who you are really, to some a pest others not, many people having different interests and objectives where deer in general are concerned. Edit. If less deer the objective more people should work the bolt more often.
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Yes, I shoot on both - although extending and having no season is two very different prospects.
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