BDS response to CONSULTATION ON SECONDARY LEGISLATION FOR DEER IN SCOTLAND

[paulbshooting]

Can't comment on Scotland but I would cull male fallow all year whilst targeting the does as a priority in season. Never take the prime bucks but it would help chip away at numbers and the shooting and stalking would help move groups of fallow out of the crops, where they do large scale damage.

 

[gixer1]

From a position of not knowing what may be the issue as I know nothing of fallow deer other than what I have read -

It seems many people comment about the size of fallow herds - is this due to the deer’s reproduction or something else?

You would think with the higher number of FAC holders in England and most ground being someone’s permission there would be more shot…whereas Scotland with more open areas and less guns should be more overrun….?

Regards,
Gixer

 

[User00040]

Agreed,
If this had happened when optical sights were becoming popular, I'm sure the BDS would have found an argument against their use
Ditto when rifles became more popular than bow and arrow and also when bow and arrow became more popular than spears

Cheers

Bruce

Would like to see the bow and arrow come back!

 

[VSS]

From a position of not knowing what may be the issue as I know nothing of fallow deer other than what I have read -

It seems many people comment about the size of fallow herds - is this due to the deer’s reproduction or something else?

You would think with the higher number of FAC holders in England and most ground being someone’s permission there would be more shot…whereas Scotland with more open areas and less guns should be more overrun….?

Regards,
Gixer

Partly due to the transient nature of fallow herds. They're not territorial like roe and muntjac, so a herd of many hundreds of animals can be here today and gone tomorrow, making them difficult to manage. Newly created "wildlife corridors", together with traditional routes of movement such as railway embankments and the craze of planting woodland alongside every newly constructed road make it really easy for them to move fast and unhindered between areas. Add into that all the new habitat that's being created, plus the arable foodsource, and they're thriving as never before.

 

[User00040]

If your experienced open ticket holder and done the DMQ and fully insured why can’t areas be opened up ? Instead off it all been stitched for money making? A payment structure tag system could be put in place, There must be plenty experienced shooters out there what could be utilised

Good idea until someone plugs a hillwalker/rambler/cyclist.

Biggest problem is getting rid of the deer once they are down.

No surprise some are leaving them to rot.

 

[gixer1]

Xx

Would like to see the bow and arrow come back!

great idea….until a deer walks in front of a bunch of ramblers with an arrow sticking out of its neck….then there would be pictures published and a ban on bows again….

 

[scrumbag]

Not intensive agriculture. Quite the opposite, in fact. The exponential rise in deer numbers has occurred following the introduction of various agri-environment schemes, such as set aside, uncultivated field margins, buffer zones, mixed cropping, uncut hedgerows, woodland creation, etc etc. These have all resulted in great deer habitat alongside arable crops, coupled with less disturbance in those areas which would previously have been cultivated. It's been a win for deer as well as other species, although the high deer numbers have now reached a point where they're negatively impacting on the other species that have benefitted.

Is that really right? I think in a lot of areas there are more acres down to arable than there were say 10-15 years ago. The deer have got to eat and increased availability of high calorie food (eg crops) I think must have a part in it. I take your point about cover though.

Scrummy

 

[User00040]

great idea….until a deer walks in front of a bunch of ramblers with an arrow sticking out of its neck….then there would be pictures published and a ban on bows again….

Saw a dead deer on the road, WE MUST BAN ALL CARS!!!

 

[VSS]

Is that really right? I think in a lot of areas there are more acres down to arable than there were say 10-15 years ago. The deer have got to eat and increased availability of high calorie food (eg crops) I think must have a part in it. I take your point about cover though.

Scrummy

I grew up in East Anglia during the 1970s and 80s, the height of the intensive farming era. It was wall-to-wall cereals and sugar beet, and hedges were being grubbed out to make fields bigger. There were no deer in the area.
There are now many farms in that region that have taken land out of arable for Countryside Stewardship schemes, there are more field corners left fallow (no pun intended), there are uncultivated margins alongside hedgerows, there are buffer zones alongside waterways, there are conservation schemes that require mixed cropping rather than monoculture, new hedges and woodlands have been planted, and farmers are, on the whole, far more aware of their environmental responsibilities.
Look at the deer situation in East Anglia now!

You are perhaps thinking of marginal land farms, such as in the Welsh borders? In these primarily stock-rearing areas there has been an increase in cereal crops (and maize) grown for livestock feed, due to the recent increases in the price of purchased feedstuff. So this has added to biodiversity in regions that were formally all grass. It is not intensification of agriculture. It's a return to a more mixed farming method that had largely been wiped out during the highly specialised intensive farming era.

 

[Nots so bad lad]

Good idea until someone plugs a hillwalker/rambler/cyclist.

Biggest problem is getting rid of the deer once they are down.

No surprise some are leaving them to rot.

Shouldn’t be any body about at daft o’clock it’s light at 3.15 areas could be managed, and extraction would after to be organised if the will is there am sure it would work

 

[foxhunter]

Shouldn’t be any body about at daft o’clock it’s light at 3.15 areas could be managed, and extraction would after to be organised if the will is there am sure it would work

Youd be surprised I've encountered dog walkers at all times day and night.

 

[countrryboy]

Partly due to the transient nature of fallow herds. They're not territorial like roe and muntjac, so a herd of many hundreds of animals can be here today and gone tomorrow, making them difficult to manage. Newly created "wildlife corridors", together with traditional routes of movement such as railway embankments and the craze of planting woodland alongside every newly constructed road make it really easy for them to move fast and unhindered between areas. Add into that all the new habitat that's being created, plus the arable foodsource, and they're thriving as never before.

Fallow aren't naturally transient and will quite happily become hefted to areas and stay there for years.
And yhis was an area of very high Fallow numbers, althou all on 1 Estate so had complete control of the management.
Was 1 mob of around 100 stayed in the same 4 or 5 fields never moving far and staying together, yet they were right on the edge of the fallow territory, go a few fields further out and never see a fallow despite them being good grazing ( dairy and silage ground)and plenty of wee woods for cover

It's only when hounded and constantly disturbed they become transient.
The last stalkers who were beginning to bring numbers down said the key was never to shoot to often in the 1areaa too hard.
Just knowing how hard u can shoot each area.
And not so easy if ur only dealing with small patches of ground as u don't have much choice where ur going.

 

[countrryboy]

Must admit don't see a lot of point in disbanding the male season.
Is there actually a specific problem of too many male deer?
If no specific problem wots it going to achieve

If in forestry ground have a OOS anyway so makes no difference.

If on open hill stalkers have enough work trying to get onto hinds in the short days and poor weather, which as has been mentioned hinds are responsible for recruitment and population numbers.

Also if u come across a stag when hind stalking with clients would there be slight pressure of a better tip if they allowed to shoot the stag instead if a hind.
Would that also have the knock on effect of making hind stalking more expensive?
As u could shoot a stag or do u pay the cheaper hind rate but then have to pay an additional fee if u shoot a stag?

On the open hill do stags not hang about in separate areas from hinds throu the winter, so depending on the ground if ur after hinds the chances of catching up with stags may be more unlikely compared to on forestry ground or with roe

If the season was to be extended would there not be an argument for stopping it at end of hind season?
So u can give the whole hill a rest ( as well as stalker) if deer have had a long hard winter do u want to be harrying them right into the spring when should be putting condition on in peace for calving?
Be enough bobble hats disturbing deer without stalkers doing it too

 

[Nots so bad lad]

Youd be surprised I've encountered dog walkers at all times day and night.

There’s a lot off remote areas still could be utilised it’s basically due to money making I feel the reluctance no issues with rabbits and foxes little money to be made

 

[slider]

Shouldn’t be any body about at daft o’clock it’s light at 3.15 areas could be managed, and extraction would after to be organised if the will is there am sure it would work

I've seem cyclists at midnight, walkers at the crack of summer dawn, and that's pretty far off the beaten track

 

[VSS]

I've seem cyclists at midnight, walkers at the crack of summer dawn, and that's pretty far off the beaten track

I tried cycling home from a party at midnight once.
I was a walker (just about) by the crack of dawn, and pretty far off the beaten track.
Can't remember what time I did eventually arrive, but I was only a crawler by then.

 

[Nots so bad lad]

I've seem cyclists at midnight, walkers at the crack of summer dawn, and that's pretty far off the beaten track

That’s the country side have seen doggers does that mean we should stop shooting

 

[Ratel]

Fallow are a transient species, but generally within an area
Some become hefted to ground where they don't need to move far and where they can readily spot a stealthy approach. Generally here they move over four estates/farms covering some 5000acres, but it's quite easy to recognise several animals and usually in an area a mile across. So the odd few become very mobile and in my youth I remember seeing a particular buck in one spot one evening and two miles away the next but they were getting a fair bit of attention. He was easily recognisable as he was the only full switch mature buck I have ever seen.
They will and do recognise sanctuaries and take advantage of that, just feeding out at night.
They can be a bit like women a real conundrum as a friend of mine says.

 

[Ronin]

The simple fix for large population reduction

Some time for reloading may be required

 

[big ears]

There’s a lot off remote areas still could be utilised it’s basically due to money making I feel the reluctance no issues with rabbits and foxes little money to be made

Think this is the issue. Some have large tracts of land that they run purely for paid stalking. For this to be profitable they let the numbers be high to increase cull fees obtained. Just scan the stalking offered section in here and look and acreage being offered by some.
We have a deer problem, we need to shoot more, this should be everyone. All in season deer should be shot on sight regardless of head until the numbers come down.