England vs Scotland Deer Act.

[Dunwaters]

I'd be VERY interested to hear the 'logical' reason why Scottish Roe can be taken with .223 and yet English Roe is a minimum of .240 calibre. Utter madness!

The relevant bodies didn’t trust English or Welsh stalkers to resist the temptation to slot a red or a fallow with a .22 centre fire if it presented during a roe stalk, so .243 became the minimum caliber.
There was a fair bit of discussion at the time, most people jumped on the .243 option with very little opposition.

 

[Dunwaters]

Scottish or English ones

Irish.

 

[VSS]

Funny enough i have just had a call a few mins ago from a Scottish Based head stalker who is right now legally using 80 grain 243 win on Reds. Its obvious is it not ? LOL

Legally? I don't think so. Not until the 21st of October.
It would be legal now, if he was in England or Wales.

 

[Bowland blades]

Legally? I don't think so. Not until the 21st of October.
It would be legal now, if he was in England or Wales.

No the estate is officially authorised from now ! Was on the phone an hour ago at most .

 

[VSS]

No the estate is officially authorised from now ! Was on the phone an hour ago at most .

So how does one estate pre-empt the legislation?
I'm sure, if I read it correctly, the changes do not come into force until 21st October.

 

[kenbro]

Not sure that is entirely fair (and I think you have acknowledged this).

I think folk (and I include myself in this) sometimes ask questions on here to:-

Check thinking.
Tap into the 'Hive' synergy.
Provoke interaction, discourse and even humour.


I often think that is one of the reasons why the "Search' function is perhaps not used as much as it could be (although that is {outside of Admin. and the Chinese Secret Service} unknowable) for the 'rank and file'.

Not everyone who goes to the library, goes to read .


View attachment 318005


Some go for the company, and some just go to keep warm - the internet is not so very different.

Google before 'Search' usually throws up more options about shooting and SD usually in those options.
Ken.

 

[kenbro]

Because when Muntjac and CWD came off people in England argued the case that you needed at least a 243 win to shoot an English or Welsh Roe Deer . Funny enough i have just had a call a few mins ago from a Scottish Based head stalker who is right now legally using 80 grain 243 win on Reds. Its obvious is it not ? LOL
Did you know more nations and states worldwide allow 223 rem for all deer ? ( a good few have larger deer than we do here btw) .

I'd be VERY interested to hear the 'logical' reason why Scottish Roe can be taken with .223 and yet English Roe is a minimum of .240 calibre. Utter madness!

Roe in Scotland can also be legally shot with .20 calibre firearms.
Ken.

 

[DavyG]

Does anyone know the what the differences are between England & Scotland in the Deer Act.

In England deer are killed.
In Scotland they are Kilt.
IMHO
DG

 

[Bowland blades]

Roe in Scotland can also be legally shot with .20 calibre firearms.
Ken.

true that ! I wonder how many reds are shot with 223 etc in Scotland ? and how many Roe in England with 22 cf?

 

[kenbro]

true that ! I wonder how many reds are shot with 223 etc in Scotland ? and how many Roe in England with 22 cf?

I think we'll just have to keep wondering!
Ken.

 

[Bowland blades]

I think we'll just have to keep wondering!
Ken.

That is the truth

 

[Island]

No the estate is officially authorised from now ! Was on the phone an hour ago at most .

So how does one estate pre-empt the legislation?
I'm sure, if I read it correctly, the changes do not come into force until 21st October.

I was under the impression that the abolition of the close season would be October 21st, but the changes to NV and bullet mass were effective November 1st?

No matter I suppose, but I am stuggling to work out by what legal mechanism an estate can be "authorised" to disregard a law that is currently still in effect.

 

[VSS]

I was under the impression that the abolition of the close season would be October 21st, but the changes to NV and bullet mass were effective November 1st?

No matter I suppose, but I am stuggling to work out by what legal mechanism an estate can be "authorised" to disregard a law that is currently still in effect.

You might be right there. I read 21st October for the changes in one document, and 1st November in another.
But yes, it's immaterial, as you say, because whichever date is correct the law hasn't changed yet

 

[slider]

Although - it could be potentially resolved with a Legislative Reform Order, where one changes the administration of an Act and not it's purpose, so allowing .22CF for instance

I don't think there is such a thing in the Scottish legal system

 

[slider]

I was under the impression that the abolition of the close season would be October 21st, but the changes to NV and bullet mass were effective November 1st?

No matter I suppose, but I am stuggling to work out by what legal mechanism an estate can be "authorised" to disregard a law that is currently still in effect.

No, that was a typo on my part on an earlier thread. Effective date for the legislation is 31st not 21st as I quoted

 

[VSS]

No, that was a typo on my part on an earlier thread. Effective date for the legislation is 31st not 21st as I quoted

This document quotes 21st October for the change to close seasons, but doesn't give a date for the change in ammo:

Red Deer and the natural environment - what differences will the changes to the legislation make? - parkswatchscotland

The damage caused by Scotland’s exceedingly high numbers of red deer and muirburn are the two main issues that need to be tackled if we are to tackle the nature and climate emergencies in the uplands. This post takes a look at the three changes in the law the Scottish Government announced...

parkswatchscotland.co.uk

 

[Island]

No the estate is officially authorised from now ! Was on the phone an hour ago at most .

I have had another quick rake through the Act and I am really not sure who would have such an authority. I would be VERY reluctant to enact such an "authorisation" at this time. I'd be even more disinclined to talk about it.

As far as I can see the Act allows NatureScot to authorise:

5(6) - Close season shooting for damage / public safety
5(7) - Kill or capture for scientific purposes
10(4) - Enforcement Order
18(2) - Night shooting
19(2) - Driving deer

That is all that NatureScot can legally say "yes" to so far as I can tell.


Under Section 21 the power to alter details of firearm / ammunition / sights / other equipment resides with the Secretary of State (originally as written, now with the Scottish Ministers I should think), but that would be applicable to all under the legislation, not just one specific estate I would have thought?

 

[Bowland blades]

For a while now large estates and government departments have been told to crack on . Testing has also been done and quite appropriately . Sorry cannot give further details
Oh i dont mean any shooting org doing tests on paper targets

 

[Island]

For a while now large estates and government departments have been told to crack on . Testing has also been done and quite appropriately . Sorry cannot give further details
Oh i dont mean any shooting org doing tests on paper targets

There is a massive legal difference between undertaking the official trials that ScotGov commissioned following publication of the DWG Report, and "cracking on" with use of a bullet weight that contravenes current legislation. To avoid ambiguity what I mean to say is that one is legal, the other is not.

If your acquaintance, and the "large estates and government departments", are shooting as part of the official trial then fair enough; if they are not then how can they be legally "authorised" because one cannot authorise someone to break the law?

 

[slider]

I have had another quick rake through the Act and I am really not sure who would have such an authority. I would be VERY reluctant to enact such an "authorisation" at this time. I'd be even more disinclined to talk about it.

As far as I can see the Act allows NatureScot to authorise:

5(6) - Close season shooting for damage / public safety
5(7) - Kill or capture for scientific purposes
10(4) - Enforcement Order
18(2) - Night shooting
19(2) - Driving deer

That is all that NatureScot can legally say "yes" to so far as I can tell.


Under Section 21 the power to alter details of firearm / ammunition / sights / other equipment resides with the Secretary of State (originally as written, now with the Scottish Ministers I should think), but that would be applicable to all under the legislation, not just one specific estate I would have thought?

NatureScot have delegated authority act for the Scottish Ministers in nature related matters, just as FLS have delegated powers to manage the national forests and land on behalf of the Scottish Ministers