Identifying key shape for a mortise lock

[Mungo]

I have an old mortise lock that we’ve lost the keys to. I’m reluctant to start replacing the lock until I’ve exhausted the alternatives (it would not be a trivial exercise).

Is there a tool or set of tools you can use to work out the appropriate key shape to get? It strikes me this should be reasonably straightforward…

And if there is such a tool, does anyone have one??

 

[Bowland blades]

I have an old mortise lock that we’ve lost the keys to. I’m reluctant to start replacing the lock until I’ve exhausted the alternatives (it would not be a trivial exercise).

Is there a tool or set of tools you can use to work out the appropriate key shape to get? It strikes me this should be reasonably straightforward…

And if there is such a tool, does anyone have one??

Do we mean really old ? Or is it one of those reasonably old house safes that are so common . ? Its been a very long time but i have done a few and it wasn't a common task , talking keys that needed to be forged to a blank before you do any cutting or fine shaping

 

[Mungo]

Do we mean really old ? Or is it one of those reasonably old house safes that are so common . ? Its been a very long time but i have done a few and it wasn't a common task , talking keys that needed to be forged to a blank before you do any cutting or fine shaping

No, not super old - maybe 15 years or so. By old, I should have said ‘old fashioned’.

Fortunately not a safe lock - just a door.

 

[Bowland blades]

No, not super old - maybe 15 years or so. By old, I should have said ‘old fashioned’.

Fortunately not a safe lock - just a door.

Assume the door locked shut ? If not change the whole lock out its real easy to do yourself , Getting the door open angle grinder and slitting disc through the locking bar / latch. Did one a couple of months ago

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Five lever mortise locks start at around ten or fifteen quid. Easy to change as stated above.
A lock smith to try cut a vey to match, I’d sit down when you ask for the quote.

 

[Longstrider]

The big question is whether the door is locked or unlocked.

If locked .... somewhat troublesome.

If unlocked then you could remove the lock and strip it yourself to find out the lay of the levers and wards so as to make your own key.

 

[Mungo]

Lock removed and replaced. It was a ball ache, as expected, and required some intense dremelling.

I still can’t help but think there must be a pretty simple tool to figure out the required key shape…

 

[Heym SR20]

Lock removed and replaced. It was a ball ache, as expected, and required some intense dremelling.

I still can’t help but think there must be a pretty simple tool to figure out the required key shape…

I would suggest talking with Edina Key and Lock down in Canonmills. They know just about every single different lock and key type.

In the same way that a decent gunsmith can look at a part of a gun and tell you from which rifle it was from.

 

[Bowland blades]

Five lever mortise locks start at around ten or fifteen quid. Easy to change as stated above.
A lock smith to try cut a vey to match, I’d sit down when you ask for the quote.

cheaper to do all the locks you have keyed alike from the manufacturer

 

[Mungo]

I would suggest talking with Edina Key and Lock down in Canonmills. They know just about every single different lock and key type.

In the same way that a decent gunsmith can look at a part of a gun and tell you from which rifle it was from.

Sadly, all done now. Lock replaced.

But I still think there must be a fairly simple way to work it out.

I imagine it must be part of the reason mortise locks were supplanted by Yale locks where security was more important.

(I spent a lot of lockdown teaching myself to pick Yale locks - enormously satisfying thing to do while stick on interminable Zoom calls…)

 

[reiver]

Back in the distant past if you knew the make of the lock we used to get the ring of keys for the make from our local supplier. Then all we had to do was try all the different keys on the ring until we found the correct key ! Easy but sometimes there was 200 +different keys on the ring

 

[hw101]

Sadly, all done now. Lock replaced.

But I still think there must be a fairly simple way to work it out.

I imagine it must be part of the reason mortise locks were supplanted by Yale locks where security was more important.

(I spent a lot of lockdown teaching myself to pick Yale locks - enormously satisfying thing to do while stick on interminable Zoom calls…)

Mungo - love your posts and respect your opinions . I think you’re a statistician?
But you’re wrong about locks. There is a reason mortise locks are on cabinets and on most front doors. A 5 lever mortise lock is very hard to attack and pick. A real challeng, even for the experienced. . As you rightly think there is a ‘tool’ for guessing the key shape - a soft metal key that is inserted into the lock, turned and indented - which is then hand filed by the smith to the correct bidding to eventually open. It can take hours!
Pin and tumbler locks - such as Yale or Master, can be opened with a ‘shim’ - like a credit card’ or picked very quickly - often in seconds. Avoid Master padlocks at all costs. There is not a master lock that can’t be opened in seconds apart from the master 911 which takes a minute.
It looks like your lock was open - rejoice. Replace it with another 5 lever mortise and don’t lose the key.

 

[Stalker62]

Primarily, there was two ways of getting into locked premises.

To do so covertly, required expertise gained through years and years of courses, training and deployments. These folk were masters of their art. Ninjas working on behalf of (then) Her Majesty.







Of course, if there was no requirement for covertness, less 'fancy' means could be deployed...

 

[Mungo]

Mungo - love your posts and respect your opinions . I think you’re a statistician?
But you’re wrong about locks. There is a reason mortise locks are on cabinets and on most front doors. A 5 lever mortise lock is very hard to attack and pick. A real challeng, even for the experienced. . As you rightly think there is a ‘tool’ for guessing the key shape - a soft metal key that is inserted into the lock, turned and indented - which is then hand filed by the smith to the correct bidding to eventually open. It can take hours!
Pin and tumbler locks - such as Yale or Master, can be opened with a ‘shim’ - like a credit card’ or picked very quickly - often in seconds. Avoid Master padlocks at all costs. There is not a master lock that can’t be opened in seconds apart from the master 911 which takes a minute.
It looks like your lock was open - rejoice. Replace it with another 5 lever mortise and don’t lose the key.

That’s very interesting - thank you!

For some reason I’d always assumed lever locks were more primitive than Yale locks.

Clearly not!

Are you able to explain why Yale locks became the more common?

 

[Mungo]

Primarily, there was two ways of getting into locked premises.

To do so covertly, required expertise gained through years and years of courses, training and deployments. These folk were masters of their art. Ninjas working on behalf of (then) Her Majesty.


View attachment 320605




Of course, if there was no requirement for covertness, less 'fancy' means could be deployed...


View attachment 320604

I can pick simpler pin and tumbler locks. Not terribly quickly, and it certainly wouldn’t be effective for ‘covert’ entry. But I’ve got myself into my office when I locked myself out! My colleagues do think I’m a ‘ninja’…

 

[martin_b]

Have a look at this guy.. https://www.youtube.com/@lockpickinglawyer

and here's his website. Covert Instruments I'd check the definition of "going equipped" before I bought anything though

 

[Mungo]

Mungo - love your posts and respect your opinions . I think you’re a statistician?
But you’re wrong about locks. There is a reason mortise locks are on cabinets and on most front doors. A 5 lever mortise lock is very hard to attack and pick. A real challeng, even for the experienced. . As you rightly think there is a ‘tool’ for guessing the key shape - a soft metal key that is inserted into the lock, turned and indented - which is then hand filed by the smith to the correct bidding to eventually open. It can take hours!
Pin and tumbler locks - such as Yale or Master, can be opened with a ‘shim’ - like a credit card’ or picked very quickly - often in seconds. Avoid Master padlocks at all costs. There is not a master lock that can’t be opened in seconds apart from the master 911 which takes a minute.
It looks like your lock was open - rejoice. Replace it with another 5 lever mortise and don’t lose the key.

I’ve gone down a UTube hole now!

Fascinating.

Lever locks are much cleverer than I realised.

 

[reiver]

Primarily, there was two ways of getting into locked premises.

To do so covertly, required expertise gained through years and years of courses, training and deployments. These folk were masters of their art. Ninjas working on behalf of (then) Her Majesty.


View attachment 320605




Of course, if there was no requirement for covertness, less 'fancy' means could be deployed...


View attachment 320604

Well they do say locks only stop honest people

 

[Stalker62]

Well they do say locks only stop honest people.

Indeed.

Point of fact.

This year, for the first time, I have put a padlock on the Pen up at the Shoot. Not sure why.





If anyone was determined to get into the Pen they would. The padlock is really just to deter the honest, curious.

 

[Pete1774]

Five lever mortise locks start at around ten or fifteen quid. Easy to change as stated above.
A lock smith to try cut a vey to match, I’d sit down when you ask for the quote.

I agree. A couple of years ago I decided to get a second spare set for my gun cabinet. One place wanted £19 pet key and another quoted £23 per key. Needless to say I didn't accept their kind offers.