Can handloading drastically change a rifle's accuracy? What is the expected accuracy from the typical hunting factory load?

[randello88]

Hi guys, i have a couple questions.
1) handloading: can a proper load development turn a 2 MOA group into a sub MOA one using a given projectile? For example, let's pretend a rifle is shooting hornady precision hunter with a eld-x bullet 2 MOA. If i take my time developing a handload, is it reasonable to expect that i will be able to achieve sub-MOA or even sub-half-MOA accuracy with a load using the same eld-x ball but with a different primer/powder/case/depth? I have a rifle which is capable of sub-Moa accuracy but not with the projectile i want to use hunting, that's why i am asking. I admit my total ignorance in the hanoading world.
2) most rifle have quite a bit of difference in accuracy with factory ammo they like and factory ammo they dislike. In my experience, for example, if a try 10 factory loads with a factory rifle, two or three will be shot very well (0.3-1 MOA), two or three very bad (3 MOA or slightly more) and the others are between 1.5 and 2.5 MOA. I am talking about hunting bullets. This is my experience with the rifles i know very well (i had 6 or 7 i got to know very well cause they have been or still are my hunting guns). Does this reflects your experience, too? If no, what is your experience in this regard?

Ciao a tutti amici
Simone

 

[norcan]

Regrets, but going from 2 MOA to sub-MOA or sub-1/2-MOA from playing about with parameters that have little influence on accuracy would not be a reasonable expectation.

 

[randello88]

Regrets, but going from 2 MOA to sub-MOA or sub-1/2-MOA from playing about with parameters that have little influence on accuracy would not be a reasonable expectation.

Thanks for the reply. I asked this because i read somewhere that, while developing a load, even small differences in powder charge and seating dept can impact the accuracy significantly. But as i said i am VERY ignorant in handloading, i just reloaded pistol ammo in bulk when i used to compete in IDPA. Handloading and reloading are two very different things of course.

 

[Bowland blades]

It depends on how bad the 2 moa load was ! A good rifle is generally quite tolerant of reasonably made ammo but get the wrong twist rate in a barrel for a bullet and it wont matter how it shoots 3 or four other loads you can end up with bullets blowing apart and never getting to the target or slapping key holes randomly even at 50 yards !
MOA at 100 yards is the std many factory rifles come with today . That is like 1/60th of a single degree so one should consider the well oiled Nut behind the butt !
2 moa rifle and a perfect shooter with good ammo can extrapolate to a 4" grouping at 200 yards by design .
There are far more sub MOA rifles than there are sub moa shooters and no - i dont know how the manufacturers break the news " Its not the gun"
I firmly believe that a gun likes what it likes , when it happens run with it . There is some good factory ammo out there , some terrible hand loaders and of course exactly the opposite can be true

 

[randello88]

It depends on how bad the 2 moa load was ! A good rifle is generally quite tolerant of reasonably made ammo but get the wrong twist rate in a barrel for a bullet and it wont matter how it shoots 3 or four other loads you can end up with bullets blowing apart and never getting to the target or slapping key holes randomly even at 50 yards !
MOA at 100 yards is the std many factory rifles come with today . That is like 1/60th of a single degree so one should consider the well oiled Nut behind the butt !
2 moa rifle and a perfect shooter with good ammo can extrapolate to a 4" grouping at 200 yards by design .
There are far more sub MOA rifles than there are sub moa shooters and no - i dont know how the manufacturers break the news " Its not the gun"
I firmly believe that a gun likes what it likes , when it happens run with it . There is some good factory ammo out there , some terrible hand loaders and of course exactly the opposite can be true

You are right. Of course let's assume the shooter is able to shoot well. Otherwise all this doesn't make sense. As i said, when a rifle of mine shoots 1/3 MOA, in range conditions i will shoot it 1/3 MOA. otherwise i wouldn't know it is a 1/3 MOA gun

 

[Bowland blades]

You are right. Of course let's assume the shooter is able to shoot well. Otherwise all this doesn't make sense. As i said, when a rifle of mine shoots 1/3 MOA, in range conditions i will shoot it 1/3 MOA. otherwise i wouldn't know it is a 1/3 MOA gun

Your simply a God dont know why you even pose the question with your "1/3 moa" gun

 

[NP435]

Thanks for the reply. I asked this because i read somewhere that, while developing a load, even small differences in powder charge and seating dept can impact the accuracy significantly. But as i said i am VERY ignorant in handloading, i just reloaded pistol ammo in bulk when i used to compete in IDPA. Handloading and reloading are two very different things of course.

I must ask what reloading and handloading have different? 2 MOA to sub MOA due to handloading only is a stretch of my imagination. You can complicate or simplify the process to your whims. I too have been a IDPA shooter, NRA smallbore have also shot in Service Rifle matches. Most of what I have seen in 40 plus years behind a trigger add up to one simple thing. Can the shooter get consistent accuracy? If not, no load experiments will help. If so and the rifle in question is consistent you may get better results with handloads. Now the qualifier, you must produce a quality product. Good luck.

 

[randello88]

Your simply a God dont know why you even pose the question with your "1/3 moa" gun

What kind of answer is this? I almost never take pics of the targets because i absolutely don't care about groups on paper other than for testing rifle to be later used in the field. If i take a pic is just to show it to my brother. I have only this one on hand right now. 100 m, geco softpoints out of my bergara b14 hunter.

I don't get why you are so surprised that someone can actually shoot his rifles. I didn't think that shooting a rifle decently, especially off a bench, was something so unbelievable.

 

[randello88]

I must ask what reloading and handloading have different? 2 MOA to sub MOA due to handloading only is a stretch of my imagination. You can complicate or simplify the process to your whims. I too have been a IDPA shooter, NRA smallbore have also shot in Service Rifle matches. Most of what I have seen in 40 plus years behind a trigger add up to one simple thing. Can the shooter get consistent accuracy? If not, no load experiments will help. If so and the rifle in question is consistent you may get better results with handloads. Now the qualifier, you must produce a quality product. Good luck.

Handloading has the goal to make a very good cartridge, finely tuned for your rifle, with the best quality components you can find/afford to get a final product that outperforms factory ammo. Reloading is recycling stuff and cutting costs for saving money and components for bulk ammo. At least this is what is commonly said.

As i said above, i can shoot, that's not the issue. With that same gun, with other factory loads, the rifle is 0.8 MOA at least (it is probably a little bit better because i didn't let it cool down between shots for time constraints and the rifle had only 35 rounds through it so it could need a bit of breaking in, being a button rifled barrel (?)

 

[Foxyboy43]

Hmmm.
1. Generally yes - if done properly handloading provides a combination of bullet, powder, primer and case each adjusted to suit your rifle - something a generic factory round can never do.
2. Is it the rifle, the rounds or the nut behind the bolt giving these not untypical results?
A bonus for you…

 

[nun_hunter]

You haven't said if the bullet is suitable for your rifle. This is the most important factor. For example trying to shoot a long heavy bullet from a slow twist barrel or a short barrel incapable of high enough velocities won't work no matter what you do with reloading techniques.

As has been mentioned on this thread already, what you achieve from a bench at the range most likely isn't what you'll achieve in the field especially if you're basing everything off a selection of 3 shot groups. Unless you're taking the average group size and poi of impact from all of these and overlaying them for comparison.

 

[WH308]

A friend of mine has an old .223 that was a bit of scatter gun with hornady factory ammo. We worked up a load and when working out the jamb length it was a piece longer than the factory. I suspect it has some throat erosion, the home loads brought back to grouping more than well enough for his needs.

 

[sikadog]

Many years ago I owned a BSA 270 that would shoot 1" to 1 1/2" shooting Winchester ammunition then I was given 300 rounds of Norma ammo, which shot minimum 6" groups which caused the odd problem.
I measured the length of the cartridge and the Norma were 5mm shorter, so I put them in my press and pulled them until they were the same length as the Winchester.
The first three I fired went 1" the second just over.
Problem solved.

 

[Heym SR20]

There are rifles that will shoot some brands of factory ammo sub moa, yet will struggle to keep other factory ammo on an A4 piece of paper.

But as others have said reloading can improve things.

But the basic rifle needs to be well put together for it to be consistently accurate.

 

[randello88]

Hmmm.
1. Generally yes - if done properly handloading provides a combination of bullet, powder, primer and case each adjusted to suit your rifle - something a generic factory round can never do.
2. Is it the rifle, the rounds or the nut behind the bolt giving these not untypical results?
A bonus for you…

It is an interesting video. I have mixed opinions about backfiretv btw. His tests sometimes are pretty ****ed up. Btw it seems like i have been very lucky in the past with my hunting rifles

 

[Border]

"Any load can be made to shoot by tuning seating depth." Erik Cortina.

 

[randello88]

You haven't said if the bullet is suitable for your rifle. This is the most important factor. For example trying to shoot a long heavy bullet from a slow twist barrel or a short barrel incapable of high enough velocities won't work no matter what you do with reloading techniques.

As has been mentioned on this thread already, what you achieve from a bench at the range most likely isn't what you'll achieve in the field especially if you're basing everything off a selection of 3 shot groups. Unless you're taking the average group size and poi of impact from all of these and overlaying them for comparison.

My most accurate rifle is a 308 with a 1:12 twist and loves 170 grainers.. go figure

 

[randello88]

You haven't said if the bullet is suitable for your rifle. This is the most important factor. For example trying to shoot a long heavy bullet from a slow twist barrel or a short barrel incapable of high enough velocities won't work no matter what you do with reloading techniques.

As has been mentioned on this thread already, what you achieve from a bench at the range most likely isn't what you'll achieve in the field especially if you're basing everything off a selection of 3 shot groups. Unless you're taking the average group size and poi of impact from all of these and overlaying them for comparison.

And you should also shoot from different field positions. Anyone can have his criteria to define the accuracy of his rifle. For me my rifle is for example a half moa gun with a certain load if i can shoot half moa all day in range conditions from a bench and if the shots go to the desired poi. Of course in the field the accuracy will be more difficult to determine and in general it won't be as much. That's why i take shots on animals when i have margin, taking into account many variables.

 

[Bowland blades]

What kind of answer is this? I almost never take pics of the targets because i absolutely don't care about groups on paper other than for testing rifle to be later used in the field. If i take a pic is just to show it to my brother. I have only this one on hand right now. 100 m, geco softpoints out of my bergara b14 hunter.

I don't get why you are so surprised that someone can actually shoot his rifles. I didn't think that shooting a rifle decently, especially off a bench, was something so unbelievable.

I am not at all surprised after just approaching towards 40 years rifle shooting competitively in many disciplines from FT from its early starts through most things rifle out to 1000 and some . I have just never heard a gun described as such as a third of moa .
My 22 rf did eight shots at 100 yards through the exact same hole , not more than a couple of tho' of edge nipped . Lapua subsonic . It could so easily have been ten but the truth is i thought i was missing after the first shot off paper and a got someone to spot me on the sand ( yeah both hit same place ). The rifle i still have of course 20 plus years on a second hand CZ 452 varmint .
My point is really is i dont say that old CZ is "0.00?" and we do not bother calling it anything but accurate and is still expected to shoot . However well shot and it is respectable we do not generally term a rifles accuracy 1/3 moa we would maybe say " sub half moa " , " sub quarter " or just "well under one moa accurate" . Why ? well because we need to do that almost every time and repeat that performance std a lot further out , this is why precision bench rest shooting goes to average group size of a number of shot targets. 20 plus years on i am very glad i haven't been describing my 22 LR as zero moa. what we tend towards is my rifle is capable of " its group average of .." on a good day and that is sub 1moa , sub 1/2 moa , sub 1/4 moa . Some times its just a one off like my eight shot hole shot with the .22 and sometimes conditions prevailing mean we need to accept less and know what a good result looks like ( on average )
To do otherwise we set ourselves up for a fall how most would describe your group would be sub moa group and if it does that practically to order in fair conditions the gun is sub moa , we dont fraction it up more using 1/3 moa purely because MOA is about one 60th of a single degree of angle without 3/4 moa being mentioned - pretty amazing enough really when repeated
Sometimes I am a bit blunt for that please except my apology

 

[Deano75]

It's been said already, but putting a "good" powder, primer, case and bullet combination together, with a high degree of consistency will generally produce accurate ammunition. There are a lot of variables to consider, twist rate etc. The main one being the trigger squeezer! If he can't shoot in the first place......
The best ammo in the world won't miraculously turn a poor shot into a benchrest champion. Just my opinion of course.