Can handloading drastically change a rifle's accuracy? What is the expected accuracy from the typical hunting factory load?

[randello88]

^
A few shots tells you nothing. There’s a good explanation in this thread:

“Mind blown” I mean it’s all made up self deception!!!??

I can distinguish it easily in 6 shots. Then i need confirmation but 90% of the time i got it right. It's pretty simple in my mind.. you try a few shots with a load, you see the rifle shoots very well, you start understanding the trajectory and, while you do it, you have many confirmations of your first impression. I don't need to read a thread about this, it always worked well for me

 

[randello88]

Yes I do get your 0.5moa rifle shoot your group then keep shooting. I’m my experience many so called 0.5moa guns if you shoot a decent sized group will turn out to be 1.25moa or something. If you can genuinely shoot 30 shots inside 0.5 moa then I will be very surprised not impossible but difficult and unusual.
Equally a 1.5moa gun can and will shoot 3 or 5 shot 0.5 moa groups.
It’s just statistics and dispersion

I hunt, i don't do statistic. Of course after 30 rounds (so more or less 100 dollars) you have a more statistically relevant number but who cares. It's not practical. If you want to do like this in order to have fun and to have some informations about your rifle, cool. It's not needed for hunting at reasonable distances. Also you should do 30 cold bore and cold shooter shots if you want to be accurate in your statistics. I don't care. I much prefer to spend money and time to train to shoot in field positions or hunting.

 

[norcan]

Of course — but by the same token, I'd be very reluctant to call a rifle "1/3-MOA" based on where three shots happened to hit.

 

[randello88]

Sadly this sort of 'pub thread' happens when the OP ( @randello88 ) wants to keep asking questions until they are satisfied to hear their own views being echoed by others, to what end, I'm unsure. To achieve some sort of validation perhaps?

First of all, ammunition can only be precise, not 'accurate', as the bullet does not know where it has been aimed. It can only be consistent.

Accuracy is dependent on how well the rifle can be aimed and hit the mark, yet without precision, this is also useless.

The scope is a major factor in both resepects, but we know what happened in the last thread the OP made about scopes. Another 'pub thread' as he didn't like what he heard.

The guys on Rokslide (US hunting forum) didn't give him the time of day for asking the same questions and being unwilling to do research...

The precision of a system boils down to a few things, assuming variables such as shooter error and environmental conditions are nill or minimised:

- Ignition timing of the rifle/catridge combination, lock time of the action

-Ammunition consistency, how well do the powder/primer/case dimentions and bullets work? Do they perform the same across temperatures and environmental conditions? Does shooting at an extreme angle affect this?

- Bullet concentricity, O.D variation (very minute), barrel twist rate requirements for bullet stability

- Rifle bedding, barrel I.D consistency (although some degree of 'choke' is seen to be beneficial)

Barrel tuners have come into vogue now in the competition circuits, some argue that it cuts out a lot of the 'tuning' previously required to find groups when handloading. I have yet to invest in one, but will do soon.

If your reloading is not consistent, your results won't be either. Not all factory ammo is consistent (check lot numbers), but some makes are excellent (Hornady, Federal, Norma and RWS).

View attachment 323357

Ok, so. Firstly, i don't have any need for validation because there is nothing to validate since, as i said, i am very new to handloading. Secondly, trust me, I couldn't care less about validation from users of a forum, i am just taking into account some real (supposedly so) experiences in something i have never done to maximize my chances of success, not waisting time and money in a possibly longer trial and error procedure to learn things with my own tests and experiments only.

You have a lot of time to spend with your researches (more investigations) and to get personally emotionally involved with people you don't know and hopefully you will never meet in person i don't even remember the thread about riflescopes but you do! I work as a psychiatrist and if someone came to my office saying he follows people on forums and then attack them without any reason, i would give him some good.. advices! I know there are some people who move all their life, their expectations, their motivation and their gratification on forums because, in the real world, they have some issues, it's not the first time i see it and it's comprehensible. The problem is that people behaving like this can ruin the otherwise pleasureable atmosphere of a forum. Don't do this, please.

What you said is obvious and not asked. Please give some actual data about "accuracy" improvement with your reloading or don't waste your and my time
You can do your own thread where you criticize me or do a lesson about terminology in ballistic.

If you don't like my "pub" threads (what does it mean?) or me, when you see my name as OP, stay away.
Of course, nothing personal.
Simone

Ciao

 

[randello88]

To some degree yes.

If it's a high quality rifle with a good barrel then you will be able to tune the load to the rifle and make it a good shooter.

However, I'd say if it's a not so good quality rifle that you would only expect 2" from on a good day then your probably at a loss to a degree. You will certainly shrink the group buy not to the size you were hoping for.

Though life's to short for worying, if its shooting 2" at 100m it's still going to kill a fox or deer every day of the week if you keep the range sensible.

I'd argue that having a consistent rifle that holds its zero even if it shoots a 2" group at 100 is better than on that shoot 1/2" but wanders around the target (which I've seen happen)

I agree that a wondering zero is way worse but, keeping in consideration esternal, enviromental factors, this shouldn’t happen. There is probably something wrong with the rifle/stock/scope combination.

 

[randello88]

Of course — but by the same token, I'd be very reluctant to call a rifle "1/3-MOA" based on where three shots happened to hit.

I would never say that my rifle is 1/3 MOA after a single 3 shots group.

 

[Hunter300]

I would like to think handloading does make a difference on accuracy. This is a 4 shot group wit a 308 handloads. Same day and conditions but different loads. And the 3rd pic was Sako factory ammunition, a slightly bigger group than the first hand loads. All shot at 100m

 

[randello88]

I would like to think handloading does make a difference on accuracy. This is a 4 shot group wit a 308 handloads. Same day and conditions but different loads. And the 3rd pic was Sako factory ammunition, a slightly bigger group than the first hand loads. All shot at 100m

Impressive shooting. How that rifle behaved with factory ammo?

 

[6.5-06 TIKKA]

Given the man pulling the trigger can do his bit.
The reloading is standardised then I agree the bullet selection is key.
If hunting, I would opt for a flat based bullet every time as they tend to stabilise easily.
I've had experience of a new 6.5mm custom barrel throated for Hornady SST and Amax .2.5 inch group of 5 shots.
Swapped to Sierra and Lapua and both worked fantastically.

 

[Hunter300]

Impressive shooting. How that rifle behaved with factory ammo?

The third pic was Sako factory amo

 

[JTO]

Sadly this sort of 'pub thread' happens when the OP ( @randello88 ) wants to keep asking questions until they are satisfied to hear their own views being echoed by others, to what end, I'm unsure. To achieve some sort of validation perhaps?

First of all, ammunition can only be precise, not 'accurate', as the bullet does not know where it has been aimed. It can only be consistent.

Well, somebody had to say it.

 

[randello88]

Well, somebody had to say it.

Here you go, now there are just a couple users missing, let's see if they show up

 

[Utectok]

don't you just love internet discussion forums LOL

 

[OId Coyote]

No two rifles seem to be the same - some appear to like one load whilst another identical model performs best with something else. Best thing is to try handloaded ammunition and see for yourself.
The published reloading manuals by Hornady, Nosler etc will state the rifling twist of their test barrel, and the range of weight of bullets trialled. This advice should avoid you loading a very heavy and therefore long bullet into a slow twist barrel, or at too low a velocity. Long bullets need to emerge spinning fast enough to stabilise and fly true.

Of course, every act of the reloading process needs to be carried out with the utmost attention to detail and repeatabilty. Measuring powder needs every rotation of a powder dispenser to be exactly the same as every other - if one flick of a powder dispenser is very slow, then expect the following powder charge to be light, as the reduced vibration will have affected the degree of settling and thus the content of the measure.. Best to check weigh each powder charge and discount any that are not within 0.1grain of the average.

Powder selection is also critical. A powder that the manuals show to be on the limit of being too fast burning, or too slow burning, for that calibre and bullet weight is likely to be inconsistent in the repeatabilty of burn time. Manuals often advise a best accuracy powder - though this is only a guide.

Answers above describe the effect of variations of bullet seating depth, touching the rifling etc. Try it and look for differences for your particular rifle. Try different 'trim to' case lengths, and try neck sizing rather than full length sizing.

That said, if feeding modern, quality brand ammunition of suitable bullet weight into a rifle gave 3moa then I would be checking the rifle, not the ammunition. Checking for loose or incorrectly tightened action screws, soundness of the bedding surfaces, the barrel preferably free-floating or having a consistent pressure point against the barrel channel. The crown of the muzzle - whichever of the many different competing opinions of profile - should be perfectly uniform.. A damaged or worn crown can seriously affect group size, and can be remedied at very little cost and time.

Different from group size is point of impact on the target with the same aiming point.. I have had two different manufacturers' .243 100gr factory loads of apparently identical specification group well but those groups to be 4" apart. The first shot from a cleaned barrel is often outside the following group. And if your rifle is temperature sensitive then each shot from a rapidly fired string can widen the group.

If all the above fails to turn your 3 moa rifle into a 1 moa rifle then ditch it for a new one!

 

[OId Coyote]

Thanks for the reply. I asked this because i read somewhere that, while developing a load, even small differences in powder charge and seating dept can impact the accuracy significantly. But as i said i am VERY ignorant in handloading, i just reloaded pistol ammo in bulk when i used to compete in IDPA. Handloading and reloading are two very different things of course.

A friend of mine who is one hell of a good shot is fanatical about group size in his custom built hunting rifles. On acquiring a new rifle or having one rebarrelled he starts on a journey to fine tune his handloads, with minute changes to every aspect, seating depth, powder, powder charge etc etc etc. Seeking the elusive 1/4 moa group may take 700 or 800 rounds - except by then the barrel is getting washed out and needs rebarrelling. Start over again!

Never mind - it keeps him off the streets and keeps the gun trade in business.

 

[MarinePMI]

Given the man pulling the trigger can do his bit.
The reloading is standardised then I agree the bullet selection is key.
If hunting, I would opt for a flat based bullet every time as they tend to stabilise easily.
I've had experience of a new 6.5mm custom barrel throated for Hornady SST and Amax .2.5 inch group of 5 shots.
Swapped to Sierra and Lapua and both worked fantastically.

Hornady bullets have had quite a bit of variance lately IME. I too, have drifted away from them (used to use them a lot) and moved over to Sierra bullets.

 

[MarinePMI]

The published reloading manuals by Hornady, Nosler etc will state the rifling twist of their test barrel, and the range of weight of bullets trialled. This advice should avoid you loading a very heavy and therefore long bullet into a slow twist barrel, or at too low a velocity. Long bullets need to emerge spinning fast enough to stabilise and fly true.

<chuckle> Not always. Go look at the Hornady manual for the 75gr .223 load data. Specifically, look at the twist rate of the test barrel. The same with the online Hodgdon load manual for the same load...

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

 

[Eagleeye]

Hmmm.
1. Generally yes - if done properly handloading provides a combination of bullet, powder, primer and case each adjusted to suit your rifle - something a generic factory round can never do.
2. Is it the rifle, the rounds or the nut behind the bolt giving these not untypical results?
A bonus for you…

 

[User00035]

To answer the OP's title question, you can't "change" a rifle's accuracy by hand loading: ie. you can't create inherent accuracy that wasn't there to begin with. But you can maximise what capability it has by developing ammunition loads that are perfectly tuned to its barrel harmonics.

It's like remapping an engine. By adjusting fueling and trimming the ignition you can make it run to its maximum capability but you can't dial in extra performance that wasn't there in its design in the first place. That needs hard engineering. Or another engine.

So yes, you can probably make your rifle shoot better by loading consistent ammunition that is perfectly attuned to it, but there's a law of diminishing returns at play. You can't make it shoot better than it's designed to shoot, just as well as it can shoot.
Fortunately, most mass-produced hunting rifles, even the cheaper ones, can usually shoot better than the person behind the butt so whether you'll find its limits (or need to find them) is debatable.

Sorry if this has been said already. I'm late to this thread and haven't read all four pages.

 

[Eagleeye]

To answer the OP's title question, you can't "change" a rifle's accuracy by hand loading: ie. you can't create inherent accuracy that wasn't there to begin with. But you can maximise what capability it has by developing ammunition loads that are perfectly tuned to its barrel harmonics.

It's like remapping an engine. By adjusting fueling and trimming the ignition you can make it run to its maximum capability but you can't dial in extra performance that wasn't there in its design in the first place. That needs hard engineering. Or another engine.

So yes, you can probably make your rifle shoot better by loading consistent ammunition that is perfectly attuned to it, but there's a law of diminishing returns at play. You can't make it shoot better than it's designed to shoot, just as well as it can shoot.
Fortunately, most mass-produced hunting rifles, even the cheaper ones, can usually shoot better than the person behind the butt so whether you'll find its limits (or need to find them) is debatable.

Sorry if this has been said already. I'm late to this thread and haven't read all four pages.

Totally agreed, Thanks.