Another Twist The Shotgun Lead Cartridge Debate

[Liveonce]

Forces are in process changing to none toxic Radwell changed production this year i do believe .
If lead is no danger consider the costs incurred as grounds are actually being made to clean up lead effectively .
Of course the Military can use depleted uranium etc but the trend is none lead for small arms
I have shot steel from shotguns almost exclusively for over a decade or so . There is no big issue with it other than getting the wads sorted and a means of making production economic in the uk .
Upside besides the toxic nature of lead for clay grounds is steel size for size looses energy faster than lead . Those who have used it on game / fowl frequently know all about that 5- 10 yards too far thing when on steel

Grounds made money voluntarily recovering the lead, ask John Bidwell, a firm was contacting clubs offering to recover the lead. None to my knowledge have been forced or are actually being made to clean up the lead, it was done when the price of lead was high and seen by the ground owners as a nice little extra income, recovering the lead from trap or skeet layouts where the lead is confined over an easy area to recover it.

Steel shot will also be an issue not just the wads as the shot is all made in China and requires much more energy to make than lead shot, more processing and hence takes many days to make rather than hours.

 

[old 30-06]

It is simply LEAD. It is not toxic. It is just lead. If you think it is toxic Bowland blades, take the 100 kilo's or so of toxic flashing off the roof of your house immediately.

 

[Bowland blades]

It is simply LEAD. It is not toxic. It is just lead. If you think it is toxic Bowland blades, take the 100 kilo's or so of toxic flashing off the roof of your house immediately.

What ? Lead isn't toxic ? Is the earth also flat ? I am not eating my lead on the roof , neither am i messing with it much but those who work with lead regularly do actually get regular blood tests . Lead has been known to have various toxic effects on the body for hundreds of years it was removed from petrol in the 80s and paint much earlier still , fishing shot in the 90s and wildfowling a short time after fishing lost it . Heck yeah i used to bite fishing shot closed and breath in fumes from leaded petrol but the clear fact is ITS TOXIC ! An odd number 6 pellet might not kill you but did it have an effect ? The evidence and science says yes !
Back onto the relevant stuff good Copper bullets are better on deer than lead when it comes to deer , i just wish they where cheaper to make and more available

 

[levigsp]

What ? Lead isn't toxic ? Is the earth also flat ? I am not eating my lead on the roof , neither am i messing with it much but those who work with lead regularly do actually get regular blood tests . Lead has been known to have various toxic effects on the body for hundreds of years it was removed from petrol in the 80s and paint much earlier still , fishing shot in the 90s and wildfowling a short time after fishing lost it . Heck yeah i used to bite fishing shot closed and breath in fumes from leaded petrol but the clear fact is ITS TOXIC ! An odd number 6 pellet might not kill you but did it have an effect ? The evidence and science says yes !
Back onto the relevant stuff good Copper bullets are better on deer than lead when it comes to deer , i just wish they where cheaper to make and more available

So straight out of the green legue book so to speek.
Show me the blood test results for people who eat lead shot game compared to their neighbour who dont ever eat game, I say neighbour as it must be like for like.
I know there is no difference in the blood lead levels of the same types with one eating lead hot game..
Yes lead is toxic, but only as compounds etc, that why people get tested when working with it.
Lead shot was banned for fishing because swans were poisoned. When ingesting it, they break the shot down in their gizzard, by grinding it with hard stone grits at the same time as food stuffs. resulting in lead compounds, we do not do that and swallow and pass the whole pellet as is.
. And that brings us to the fact that many tonnes of lead shot were and still are used in various countries as bead pellets for ship hull blasters in cleaning. this is always done in areas of water where ducks, geese and swans have free access to the shot, yet the powers to be dont even mention this fact, i wonder why.
Personally i shooting times are fast coming to an end and although I sometimes think" it not right that the younger people cannot use lead etc etc" I also think, well everything else is being ruined and they will not be able to do most of the things I did, so it doesn't make much difference in the long run.

 

[Bowland blades]

So straight out of the green legue book so to speek.
Show me the blood test results for people who eat lead shot game compared to their neighbour who dont ever eat game, I say neighbour as it must be like for like.
I know there is no difference in the blood lead levels of the same types with one eating lead hot game..
Yes lead is toxic, but only as compounds etc, that why people get tested when working with it.
Lead shot was banned for fishing because swans were poisoned. When ingesting it, they break the shot down in their gizzard, by grinding it with hard stone grits at the same time as food stuffs. resulting in lead compounds, we do not do that and swallow and pass the whole pellet as is.
. And that brings us to the fact that many tonnes of lead shot were and still are used in various countries as bead pellets for ship hull blasters in cleaning. this is always done in areas of water where ducks, geese and swans have free access to the shot, yet the powers to be dont even mention this fact, i wonder why.
Personally i shooting times are fast coming to an end and although I sometimes think" it not right that the younger people cannot use lead etc etc" I also think, well everything else is being ruined and they will not be able to do most of the things I did, so it doesn't make much difference in the long run.

Time for deflecting the blame and doubting the evidence passed a long while back . Personally i think the Americans except a lead shot ban easier because their primary reason was more dabbling Duck to shoot

 

[B&W FOX]

Time for deflecting the blame and doubting the evidence passed a long while back . Personally i think the Americans except a lead shot ban easier because their primary reason was more dabbling Duck to shoot

As the article was by ISSF, the sportsmen and women involved in skeet and trap at the top level throughout the world shoot thousands of cartridges in practice and competitions a year, no wonder cartridge manufacturers are falling over themselves to sponsor them.

It's not only them. There are hundreds of competive shooters that shoot sporting, DTL Trap, skeet etc at club and national level that go through thousands of cartridges each year.
In the 1980's I used to go through ten thousand cartridges a year just on clay's, then another thousand or so on vermin, game and wildfowling, so I can understand the argument for competive shooters and grounds to continue to use lead.

Game shooters and wildfowlers are a tiny minority in the bigger picture.
I can understand the ban on the foreshore to an extent, but we've been shooting lead over it for the last 100 years and "no one" has come up with the evidence of how many wildfowl die / have died from ingestion.
Pheasants and grouse go into the food chain in mass or thats what some shooting organisations would like us to think.
There's more beaters take a brace home than gun's at the end of a day.
If your not prepared to eat it don't shoot it.

 

[Bowland blades]

As the article was by ISSF, the sportsmen and women involved in skeet and trap at the top level throughout the world shoot thousands of cartridges in practice and competitions a year, no wonder cartridge manufacturers are falling over themselves to sponsor them.

It's not only them. There are hundreds of competive shooters that shoot sporting, DTL Trap, skeet etc at club and national level that go through thousands of cartridges each year.
In the 1980's I used to go through ten thousand cartridges a year just on clay's, then another thousand or so on vermin, game and wildfowling, so I can understand the argument for competive shooters and grounds to continue to use lead.

Game shooters and wildfowlers are a tiny minority in the bigger picture.
I can understand the ban on the foreshore to an extent, but we've been shooting lead over it for the last 100 years and "no one" has come up with the evidence of how many wildfowl die / have died from ingestion.
Pheasants and grouse go into the food chain in mass or thats what some shooting organisations would like us to think.
There's more beaters take a brace home than gun's at the end of a day.
If your not prepared to eat it don't shoot it.

Very much agree about if you wont eat it dont shoot it principle

 

[timbrayford]

What ? Lead isn't toxic ? Is the earth also flat ? I am not eating my lead on the roof , neither am i messing with it much but those who work with lead regularly do actually get regular blood tests . Lead has been known to have various toxic effects on the body for hundreds of years it was removed from petrol in the 80s and paint much earlier still , fishing shot in the 90s and wildfowling a short time after fishing lost it . Heck yeah i used to bite fishing shot closed and breath in fumes from leaded petrol but the clear fact is ITS TOXIC ! An odd number 6 pellet might not kill you but did it have an effect ? The evidence and science says yes !
Back onto the relevant stuff good Copper bullets are better on deer than lead when it comes to deer , i just wish they where cheaper to make and more available

Actually what you are referring to is various compounds of lead, all of which vary in toxicity, the issue with both petrol and paint was primarily via inhalation, not people stirring it into their tea or spreading it in a sandwich.

 

[Pedro]

Evidence about how terrible lead is, how horrible steel is, how expensive other materials are, how one type of cartridge load is more likely not to produce clean kills, what the price of everything is, whether game or clay shooting will survive long term is all very interesting.

But in reality, those who decide what, if anything we can shoot will take altogether no interest in any of the above. (Except if it helps their agenda.) Because those that make the decisions are politicians only driven by their own beliefs and policies. And, let's face it, most parties sort out their policies on the back of fag packets without any reference to either facts or those with any knowledge about the subject matter. Indeed, the overriding factor in policy decisions is whether they will generate more votes.

 

[old 30-06]

Pedro, you are spot on.

 

[LuckyEddie]

Myself and my Mrs have both damaged a tooth on steel but then how many lead pellets or lead contaminated meat have we consumed ?

Depending on how long you have been shooting it may be quite a number.
However, you are still here and from what I can read in control of your senses.
This would give the indication that the pellets have moved out of your body before they could be broken down to cause any damage to your health - unlike the steel shot!

Actually quite a good example of how the supposed safe material actually isn‘t.

 

[old 30-06]

If you shoot a bird with steel shot and freeze it for, say, two months, and then go to eat it, will the steel pellets have rusted ?

 

[Smellydog]

I'm not getting drawn into this but I will say this publicly.
I've used lead all my life, I'm fine.
There is no evidence that consuming game shot with lead has harmed anyone and as far as I know no game retailer has been successfully sued for health reasons from eating game shot with lead.
I will continue using lead no matter what the law says therefore because it is discrimination.
If it's ok for water to enter my home via a lead pipe and rain water run off lead lined roofs then it's fine for me to use as I always have.
Go to hell.....

 

[Bowland blades]

Depending on how long you have been shooting it may be quite a number.
However, you are still here and from what I can read in control of your senses.
This would give the indication that the pellets have moved out of your body before they could be broken down to cause any damage to your health - unlike the steel shot!

Actually quite a good example of how the supposed safe material actually isn‘t.

i promise you i have had soo much steel pass through me i might be possible to magnetise . However there is absolutely no denial of lead being a major risk to health , we need to pack that angle on things away . The biggest risk with steel shot ( actually its Iron technically ) is broken teeth from biting down on missed pellets

 

[levigsp]

i promise you i have had soo much steel pass through me i might be possible to magnetise . However there is absolutely no denial of lead being a major risk to health , we need to pack that angle on things away . The biggest risk with steel shot ( actually its Iron technically ) is broken teeth from biting down on missed pellets

So the effect of acid in your stomach on iron has no ill effects? have you seen the tests of acid on iron pellets compared to lead?

 

[Cumbrian 1]

What ? Lead isn't toxic ? Is the earth also flat ? I am not eating my lead on the roof , neither am i messing with it much but those who work with lead regularly do actually get regular blood tests . Lead has been known to have various toxic effects on the body for hundreds of years it was removed from petrol in the 80s and paint much earlier still , fishing shot in the 90s and wildfowling a short time after fishing lost it . Heck yeah i used to bite fishing shot closed and breath in fumes from leaded petrol but the clear fact is ITS TOXIC ! An odd number 6 pellet might not kill you but did it have an effect ? The evidence and science says yes !
Back onto the relevant stuff good Copper bullets are better on deer than lead when it comes to deer , i just wish they where cheaper to make and more available

One of the big arguments for the lead ban is removing lead from the environment, water of roof flashings is contaminated with trace elements of lead, especially as rain is naturally slightly acidic.

I wonder how many roofs have lead flashing? Though I imagine that the compulsory removal of lead flashings and roof wouldn’t win many votes whereas shooting is a minority sport.

 

[Cumbrian 1]

Also the steel in steel shot isn’t stainless, it rusts, if you process a bird with steel shot you’ll often get discolouration around the shot.

 

[Ratel]

I think there will be a general election next autumn, and if the Women's Institute field a candidate they could win.

And they would do a much better job.

 

[Bowland blades]

So the effect of acid in your stomach on iron has no ill effects? have you seen the tests of acid on iron pellets compared to lead?

means nothing Lead is still absorbed into the blood , its not actually the lead pellet being swallowed that matters so much to humans in a short enough time we will deposit that into the toilet. Lead particles seem to be the concern as these can be taken in by the body and the blood that transports it to the brain etc where it does its work . Tests on people born after the ban on leaded petrol have proved this kind of thing . Back hundreds of years ago we realised this kind of thing happening with the white lead based make-up and in my own childhood with pet budgies picking at lead based paints . If you with to fight the ban on lead ammo you might need a lot more swatting up

 

[Ratel]

Get used to the fact that each and every MP for whatever party only does what the party tells them. None of them are there for the members of their constituency so literally take no notice of whatever we shooters say. If they acted purely in the interest of voters they would soon lose their steady little number and pension. They toe the line and dance to their master's music.