Lead Ban- UK Reach 2nd Consultation

[Terry2016]

This. Absolutely. And yet, yet, yet again when asked BASC say that the eminently sensible "New Zealand model" when suggested as a template for the UK are told that "it isn't suitable". In which model a water body is defined as more than three metres wide.

Yeah...right...not suitable for supporting the argument deployed by the "big bag boy" and the now re-named British Game Alliance that what is shot goes into the food chain. Because I'd argue that this model, this New Zealand model works for pretty much all of us. Oh....but not for the "big bag boys". So everybody else gets thrown under the bus by BASC not (it its call for non-toxic) using this model as its benchmark.

So here it is the "New Zealand model" that BASC said is "not suitable". The key points are .410" exempted, ALL hunters of upland game (all quail and pheasants) are exempted. That's because research has shown these birds are not affected because the shot "in the uplands" is so widely dispersed*, ALL hunters who pass the "200m rule test" are exempted (see below).

* The exact words used in the rules.

200 Metre Test:
If you're hunting waterfowl (swans, geese, ducks and pukeko), MORE THAN 200 metres from a water body, which is taken as any stream, river, lake or tidal area, "more than 3m wide," you can continue to use lead shot, if you wish. Lead shot that falls on land away from water is not a significant risk to waterfowl

If you are within 200m of a waterway, over 3 metres in width, and while upland game bird hunting with lead and encounter a duck, then either don't shoot at it with lead or cover your risk by using only non-toxic shot

If you are hunting BOTH upland AND waterfowl within 200m of a waterway, more than 3m in width, then you must use ONLY non-toxic shot

If you are hunting waterfowl within 200m of a waterway, more than 3 metres wide and you are in possession of BOTH lead and non-toxic ammunition you will be prosecuted. If your intention was to hunt upland game later with lead shot or to hunt waterfowl with lead later beyond the 200m rule, you need to be completely unambiguous about this. For instance, by keeping the lead ammunition back in the vehicle when you are hunting waterfowl within the 200m zone

If you hunt in a tidal area, then the 200m rule applies from the Mean High Water Mark. So you may be 500 metres away from the water's edge at low tide, but this is not a defence. Similarly, if you're hunting next to floodwaters it is the edge of the floodwater at that time that you measure the 200m from.

Non Toxic Shot Regulations | Fish and Game

In New Zealand it is compulsory to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl with any gun using a 10 or 12 gauge cartridge for all areas,

fishandgame.org.nz

SO I WILL NOW ASK HERE PUBLICLY AND ASK IF BASC WILL ANSWER DIRECTLY HERE. WILL THEY NOW, BASC, IN THIS SECOND ROUND, LOBBY (AND PUBLICLY AND UNEQUIVOCALLY STATE SUCH ON THEIR WEBSITE) FOR THIS NEW ZEALAND MODEL TO BE ADOPTED HERE IN THE UK?

Indeed the New Zealand website ends with these words:

How would this control the risks proposed by the HSE such as the ingestion of shot, other than in those areas above?

 

[Ratel]

You need to look at the biochemistry within the body. Heavy metals have a pretty negative effect on how the immune system works to combat unusual proteins. The levels of heavy metals that correlate to disease are at the nano gram level.

We don’t yet know exactly how the heavy metals mess up the immune system but there is a lot of ongoing work in this area - most is happening in the US, and a lot is as yet unpublished as treatments for cancers and other infectious disease are being developed based on removing excess heavy metals and the early results are very promising.

There was quite a bit of work on the effect of lead in petrol causing cancers back in the 1950’s but it was rather pushed to one side - much more money in chemotherapy and the oil industry.

I would think having probably ingested more lead than most( lead water pipes, lead shot, pork salted and brined in a lead trough) I should be well dead now rather than in my 80s. Just consider the growth hormones in our meat, chemicals put on cattles backs to kill something or other, and the six or so times our arable and fruit food is sprayed with chemicals and then preservatives added. It makes lead poisoning look like harmless baby food. No wonder there is an upsurge in cancer

 

[Heym SR20]

I would think having probably ingested more lead than most( lead water pipes, lead shot, pork salted and brined in a lead trough) I should be well dead now rather than in my 80s. Just consider the growth hormones in our meat, chemicals put on cattles backs to kill something or other, and the six or so times our arable and fruit food is sprayed with chemicals and then preservatives added. It makes lead poisoning look like harmless baby food. No wonder there is an upsurge in cancer

I would rather agree with you. Fundamentally any foreign chemicals in our food is probably not good for us. You have lived to your 80’s, but many do not.

I have three good friends die of leukaemia in their 40’s, 50’s and early 60’s. Wife lost a colleague a few days agp to cancer. He webt to the doctor 2 weeks ago with a bit of a cough.

How do you know that you haven’t a higher than norm level pf lead in your body. Doesn’t necessarily mean you will get cancer, but means you have a higher risk. Equally my grandmother lived to her mid 90’s smoking 60 cigarettes a day and drinking half a bottle of gin and whisky plus plenty of red wine.

But plenty of alcoholics and smokers have died pretty young.

 

[Laurie]

and the six or so times our arable and fruit food is sprayed with chemicals

That comment reminded me of a conversation I had with a senior scientific academic from York Uni many, many years ago. It was during a (meat) food scare period, BSE or somesuch. The guy said - and he assured me he wasn't joking - that he had nil worries about eating beef, but anyone who valued their health would never eat commercially farmed Iceberg lettuce.

 

[VSS]

my grandmother lived to her mid 90’s smoking 60 cigarettes a day and drinking half a bottle of gin and whisky plus plenty of red wine.

That gives me some hope.

 

[User00040]

You need to look at the biochemistry within the body. Heavy metals have a pretty negative effect on how the immune system works to combat unusual proteins. The levels of heavy metals that correlate to disease are at the nano gram level.

We don’t yet know exactly how the heavy metals mess up the immune system but there is a lot of ongoing work in this area - most is happening in the US, and a lot is as yet unpublished as treatments for cancers and other infectious disease are being developed based on removing excess heavy metals and the early results are very promising.

There was quite a bit of work on the effect of lead in petrol causing cancers back in the 1950’s but it was rather pushed to one side - much more money in chemotherapy and the oil industry.

Hope you dress like this for stalking, as there be lead in dem primers going off next to your face, you know!

 

[kenbro]

That gives me some hope.

I’ve said this before.
My Granddaddy gave up smoking when he was 94…he was dead by 96 and his mother told me it was giving up smoking that killed him!
Ken.

 

[Stevie/P]

No wonder there is an upsurge in cancer

And sissies.

 

[Heym SR20]

That gives me some hope.

She poured skorn with added vitriol on everyone. So much so that the Devil certainly wasn’t letting her downstairs. And she is still causing strife long after she is gone.

 

[AGR]

I’ve said this before.
My Granddaddy gave up smoking when he was 94…he was dead by 96 and his mother told me it was giving up smoking that killed him!
Ken.

Hang on kenbro, your Granddaddy died at 95/96, and HIS mother said giving up smoking killed him? You've got some good genes in your family!

 

[tim@tcs]

When you understand steel shot well and what to use and not use , ranges etc ... Steel can in many instances be better than lead in my experience ( as regards lethality).For the last 15 years or so i have been shooting almost exclusively steel . Its especially good on foxes ! It takes a little time to learn it that is all

Not really giving evidence though, I don’t have 15 years shooting left with a shotgun, I will hand in my sgc next renewal as I get as much pleasure watching a good days pheasant shooting as I used to taking part!

Still no official evidence presented to show that steel will do what lead has, nothing from a scientific perspective anyway

 

[KimE]

Not much reseach needed as ammunition manufactorers already have developed alternatives.

 

[tim@tcs]

Not much reseach needed as ammunition manufactorers already have developed alternatives.

That’s no excuse for banning the traditional lead shot
It’s the motoring equivalent of banning petrol cars just because electric ones exist

 

[KimE]

No its the motoring equivalent of banning lead in petrol and its already done and we are still driving petrol cars.

 

[timbrayford]

You need to look at the biochemistry within the body. Heavy metals have a pretty negative effect on how the immune system works to combat unusual proteins. The levels of heavy metals that correlate to disease are at the nano gram level.

We don’t yet know exactly how the heavy metals mess up the immune system but there is a lot of ongoing work in this area - most is happening in the US, and a lot is as yet unpublished as treatments for cancers and other infectious disease are being developed based on removing excess heavy metals and the early results are very promising.

There was quite a bit of work on the effect of lead in petrol causing cancers back in the 1950’s but it was rather pushed to one side - much more money in chemotherapy and the oil industry.

But what about mercuric amalgam fillings, shouldn't the HSE have prioritised that instead? Perhaps it was a political decision based on NHS cost overruns and the over stretched NHS dental service?

 

[timbrayford]

No its the motoring equivalent of banning lead in petrol and its already done and we are still driving petrol cars.

Not quite, a common thread both with lead additives in petrol and paints was a major transmission route into the human body was via inhalation, same applies to people whose occupations involve exposure to other lead vapours and dusts. Its just not comparable to shooting with lead shot.

 

[DH39]

As regards some of the recent comments the following background might help:

There would be no review of lead ammunition by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) if it wasn’t for Brexit because the government needed to create new laws on the regulation of chemicals so that the trade in chemicals between GB and EU could continue (Northern Ireland trade being covered under the NI Protocol)

The HSE was tasked as the agency responsible for the implementation of the regulations (called UK REACH) and in 2021 it was announced that the first two substances to be reviewed would be lead in ammunition and certain chemicals in tattoo inks: emulating similar reviews in the EU.

The approach the HSE has taken, and is taking with many other reviews, is looking at the risks and investigating where it is feasible to reduce those risks to a ‘nil or negligible’ level.

The HSE does not create laws, it can only make recommendations and submit these to the Defra secretary of state for consideration.

If BASC has concerns that any legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.

How to respond to the consultation

The survey response form contains mostly technical and confusing questions. However, there is a shortcut and it will take less than five minutes of your time.

Just skip to the last section of the survey and in ‘general comments’ tell them, in your own words, what you think about a lead ban based on your own shooting interests and experience.

Click the link below to complete the 'general comments' section of the HSE survey response form:

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/cr...each/lead-in-ammunition/consultation/[/QUOTE]

This may be true but BASC or elements in BASC were in favour of a lead ban well before any mention of Brexit

 

[DH39]

This may be true but But BASC or elements of BASC were in favour of a lead ban well before any mention of Brexit

 

[enfieldspares]

No its the motoring equivalent of banning lead in petrol and its already done and we are still driving petrol cars.

Ermm..with exemptions to allow older cars to use still available leaded petrol. So leaded petrol has NOT been 100% banned in the UK.

https://www.yell.com/l/leaded+petrol.html

Welcome to Ashwell Garage

Will there be a similar exemption for damascus barrel shotguns, vena contracta shotguns and those made before 1954?

 

[DTD]

I'm really torn on the lead/steel debate
I want to be more sustainable and environmentally considerate, and also careful with food hygiene and putting meat in the food chain. But factors such as price, availability and performance hinder my thought processes