Lead Ban- UK Reach 2nd Consultation

[tim@tcs]

I know of two now EX- wildfowlers who where convicted of using lead . I doubt they are the only two events that have occurred! I dont think prosecutions of those who have done this are put out in the public domain and if they where what might the heading be "wildlife crime ? " there is a stink load of offences for that but i doubt using lead shot on wildfowl reach the local newspaper . If it did it would likely come under the header " wildlife crime " not specifically illegal shooting of wildfowl with lead shot .
Some club bailiffs do checks , i have been checked once as i dropped a silly high goose i should not have pointed at and the bailiff was straight over thinking it was with lead ( was actually 36 grm number 3 steel). One pellet into the brain!

Sorry but the quote I used earlier was the RSPB quote of one prosecution for shooting a mute swan. The criminal was also prosecuted under environmental legislation for using lead shot to commit this offence. No other offences have been recorded. Please refrain from blackening the reputation of those of us that obey the law.

The fact that it was a badly thought out knee jerk reaction to a problem that didnt really exist based upon flawed science from anti shooting groups in the USA and latched onto by biased anti shooting civil servants has nothing to do with it. The law should have been only about water entering the lead supply (no pun intended) and therefore using lead against waterfowl when nowhere near a water course should have been still permitted under some small level of common sense, after all a dead duck doesnt know if its lead shot or non lead.

 

[tim@tcs]

I remember this one but not the finer details it was damming evidence and the birds where purchased , if i remember correctly from a supermarket or supermarkets . An event that must have helped the anti and ushered in the current changes

However a report so damning in its scientific evidence it can no longer be found on DEFRA's website!

 

[Bowland blades]

You are clutching at straws. You don't have to do much shooting to know that today, 20 odd years after the ban there are still people using lead to shoot wildfowl illegally. The "antis" and the government know it too.

There are even people on this site saying that if lead is banned, they intend to break the law.

The shooting community is it's own worst enemy. If there is a ban on lead it needs to be an outright ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition across the board.

They obviously dont get the fact that the authorities check all social media today . I await a few saying i am telling fibs LOL I am not though and they have gotten very good at it . Seems to be par for the course at renewal times

 

[Smellydog]

Many times I've found lead shot and airgun pellets in healthy animals.
Their bodies had surrounded the foreign lead body in strong tissues and completely isolated them. The removed pellets were not oxidized or reacting in any way.
But me not being an expert means what I saw does not count, I guess what I've seen doesn't fit the narrative and I didn't go to university.
Actually, I glad I didn't....

 

[Smellydog]

Remember these from last Saturday.

Not one single pellet in the meat.

But somehow I need saving from myself but can smoke, drink and eat all the pies in the world!

 

[kenbro]

Remember these from last Saturday.
View attachment 336259
Not one single pellet in the meat.
View attachment 336260
But somehow I need saving from myself but can smoke, drink and eat all the pies in the world!

Sounds like you’re just plain greedy!
Ken.

 

[Bowland blades]

However a report so damning in its scientific evidence it can no longer be found on DEFRA's website!

dont think it was Defra who did this report might very well have been the FSA but i dont truly remember it was a good few years back now i seem to remember ( even more amazing ). Anyhow it matters not the fact we have been able to put game meat contaminated with lead into the human food supply for so long is when we face the facts pretty surprising to say the least.
TBF shooting has done very well as regards the deals suggested and i personally feel our orgs have done pretty good to say the least except maybe target shooting . In my own lifetime i cannot remember target shooting representative bodies do very well in any negotiations with governments in the UK tbf . Can only think of them retaining 22rf semi auto in the post Hungerford legislation

 

[tim@tcs]

Can only think of them retaining 22rf semi auto in the post Hungerford legislation

That was known as the farmers pest control exemption when first proposed, I don’t think the NRA UK has ever been any good at anything besides promoting TR, they disliked Match, they hated pistol and were disgracefully quick in throwing that and self loading rifles under the bus.
Yes five years may seem a long time but it’s simply to push down the price that a lead only gun will fetch, there will be bugger all compensation for those of us with classic guns!

 

[enfieldspares]

The NRA position post-Hungerford sadly reminds me of what BASC has done. Effectively the NRA said that whilst they accepted some self-loading rifles such as the AK47 should be banned that other self-loading rifles should be allowed. Such as the L1A1 SLR. A very young female reporter at their news conference then stood up and asked "So what's the difference? You accept one should be banned but not the other?"

So this is exactly now the nonsense of the BASC position. A lead pellet shot pheasant is a thing that should no longer be permitted. Indeed BASC has said themselves that they urge an end to using lead pellets to shoot pheasant. But a lead expanding shot roe deer in which its shoulders are then put through the meat mincer and turned into burgers should remain permitted. Cue again..."So what's the difference?"

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I posted the following in another thread which may be of relevance in relation to comments above:

We are fighting the proposals and have successfully done so for every other proposal that preceded it for decades. And despite the relentless anti-BASC rhetoric and misinformation on here and in other places - the fact is there has been no lead ban - and BASC keeps saying it is fighting lead bans.

BASC has long been criticised by the antis for fighting lead ban proposals and has long been criticised by the BASC bashers on forums for not fighting the lead ban proposals. Square that circle if you can!

Also, these are not actual changes in law being discussed, they are proposals that are being consulted on. And already we have made progress on airgun pellets and rifle ammunition. But more work needed on lead shot. And I have said that if we have concerns that any resulting legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.

Few believed that the various hunting trophies import ban proposals would be knocked back. They were. Most believed that the recent section 2 to section 1 firearm proposals would be taken up. They were not.

Anyway we will keep fighting on this and other issues and any support for that is most welcome.

 

[Whitefront]

One difference that I can see is that most deer are now being shot with nonlead, and most dealers require lead free carcasses. Lead is rapidly disappearing from deer stalking and from venison, hence there is no real need for legal compulsion.

By contrast, most pheasants are still being shot with neurotoxic lead and far too much of the horrible stuff is still getting into human food chain and still polluting our environment. The leadist fuddy-duddies are making a legal ban on lead shotgun ammunition all but inevitable.

 

[Liveonce]

lead in ammunition really

Warning a child could die due to illegal drugs in vapes

A head teacher said one of his pupils collapsed after using a vape containing the illegal drug spice.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[User00048]

I posted the following in another thread which may be of relevance in relation to comments above:

We are fighting the proposals and have successfully done so for every other proposal that preceded it for decades. And despite the relentless anti-BASC rhetoric and misinformation on here and in other places - the fact is there has been no lead ban - and BASC keeps saying it is fighting lead bans.

BASC has long been criticised by the antis for fighting lead ban proposals and has long been criticised by the BASC bashers on forums for not fighting the lead ban proposals. Square that circle if you can!

Also, these are not actual changes in law being discussed, they are proposals that are being consulted on. And already we have made progress on airgun pellets and rifle ammunition. But more work needed on lead shot. And I have said that if we have concerns that any resulting legislative proposals are disproportionate and will damage shooting, we will lobby for them to be revised.

Few believed that the various hunting trophies import ban proposals would be knocked back. They were. Most believed that the recent section 2 to section 1 firearm proposals would be taken up. They were not.

Anyway we will keep fighting on this and other issues and any support for that is most welcome.

Hi Conor,

Do you think that when it comes down to any possible legislation regarding the use of leadshot on any lawful species, that there will be exemptions made for smallbore smoothbore?

For example the only available non-lead option for .410 (within the UK) as far as i'm aware, is bismuth and priced at £48 per box of 25 for 16grams of number 4 or number 5 shot! I don't believe that we will see any other or more variety of non-lead imports, as by now (so many years into the warnings of lead shot being phased out) I would think that if it was going to happen, it would have already (the importing of non-lead alternatives for 410). So I fear for the loss of the .410 as a shotgun in the UK for example, as the vast majority will not home load and so the guns will not be bought any longer or sold new. If you see where I am going with this and where it could lead.

Obviously it can sometimes seem like a stretch for governing bodies to come to a reasonable conclusion and compromise. For example that the use of small smoothbore is very limited compared to the use of say 20b and 12b and the risks and the suggested impacts on the environment being much lower (far less people using 410 and 410 containing far less quantity of pellets) ...it does not seem like too much of an ask.

Granted that any exemption like that may lead to more people using small smoothbore as a way around any lead restrictions, I do not doubt that however I also don't believe that every single shooter will simply move to smoothbore in an act of defiance of restrictions. (Some will of course.)

 

[Liveonce]

Hi Conor,

Do you think that when it comes down to any possible legislation regarding the use of leadshot on any lawful species, that there will be exemptions made for smallbore smoothbore?

For example the only available non-lead option for .410 (within the UK) as far as i'm aware, is bismuth and priced at £48 per box of 25 for 16grams of number 4 or number 5 shot! I don't believe that we will see any other or more variety of non-lead imports, as by now (so many years into the warnings of lead shot being phased out) I would think that if it was going to happen, it would have already (the importing of non-lead alternatives for 410). So I fear for the loss of the .410 as a shotgun in the UK for example, as the vast majority will not home load and so the guns will not be bought any longer or sold new. If you see where I am going with this and where it could lead.

Obviously it can sometimes seem like a stretch for governing bodies to come to a reasonable conclusion and compromise. For example that the use of small smoothbore is very limited compared to the use of say 20b and 12b and the risks and the suggested impacts on the environment being much lower (far less people using 410 and 410 containing far less quantity of pellets) ...it does not seem like too much of an ask.

Granted that any exemption like that may lead to more people using small smoothbore as a way around any lead restrictions, I do not doubt that however I also don't believe that every single shooter will simply move to smoothbore in an act of defiance of restrictions. (Some will of course.)

We can live in hope, but I expect the HSE will not care how much it costs us to shoot, not part of their remit.

 

[Whitefront]

Indeed. According to environmental law, the polluter pays...

 

[timbrayford]

You are clutching at straws. You don't have to do much shooting to know that today, 20 odd years after the ban there are still people using lead to shoot wildfowl illegally. The "antis" and the government know it too.

There are even people on this site saying that if lead is banned, they intend to break the law.

The shooting community is it's own worst enemy. If there is a ban on lead it needs to be an outright ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition across the board.

Including the military and police

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Hi Conor,

Do you think that when it comes down to any possible legislation regarding the use of leadshot on any lawful species, that there will be exemptions made for smallbore smoothbore?

For example the only available non-lead option for .410 (within the UK) as far as i'm aware, is bismuth and priced at £48 per box of 25 for 16grams of number 4 or number 5 shot! I don't believe that we will see any other or more variety of non-lead imports, as by now (so many years into the warnings of lead shot being phased out) I would think that if it was going to happen, it would have already (the importing of non-lead alternatives for 410). So I fear for the loss of the .410 as a shotgun in the UK for example, as the vast majority will not home load and so the guns will not be bought any longer or sold new. If you see where I am going with this and where it could lead.

Obviously it can sometimes seem like a stretch for governing bodies to come to a reasonable conclusion and compromise. For example that the use of small smoothbore is very limited compared to the use of say 20b and 12b and the risks and the suggested impacts on the environment being much lower (far less people using 410 and 410 containing far less quantity of pellets) ...it does not seem like too much of an ask.

Granted that any exemption like that may lead to more people using small smoothbore as a way around any lead restrictions, I do not doubt that however I also don't believe that every single shooter will simply move to smoothbore in an act of defiance of restrictions. (Some will of course.)

Thanks, when it comes to possible legislation that could be very unpredictable and influenced by general election party manifestos and political lobbying for amendments etc - remember we are up against people and organisations that want to see a complete and immediate ban on all lead ammunition - regardless of the evidence or consequences - we might not see derogations of any sort - or we might see all sorts of derogations including those you propose above - its down to politics. We also might not see any legislation proposed at all. And added factor however is devolution - in Wales and Scotland for example, they could just go ahead with whatever they want to do, so it would not be discussion by MPs in Westminster, it would be Members of Sennedd or Members of Scottish Parliament making the decision and likely different laws in every country - as we have already with lead shot for wildfowl/wetlands.

However, at this point in time, which is consultation leading to HSE recommendations to Defra, the derogations being considered are longer transition periods for some calibres of shotgun and rifle and the types of derogations you propose above are not being entertained by the HSE. In the EU, its the same situation, where lead ban proposals are about a year ahead of the HSE lead ammunition review, albeit there is talk of a ten year transition period.

The latest HSE draft background document which looks at all the issues and considers what was submitted to its last consultation is here:

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/user_uploads/lead-in-ammunition-background-document---draft-sea.pdf

The HSE draft socio-economic opinion is here:

https://consultations.hse.gov.uk/crd-reach/lead-in-ammunition/user_uploads/lead-in-ammunition-restriction-opinion-document---draft-sea-opinion.pdf

 

[Liveonce]

 

[timbrayford]

Has the HSE taken into account the very real risks from steel shot rusting into a solid lump under the crimp and forming a dangerous long distance projectile? It's important as they appear to believe that steel is a safe substitute for lead shot when together with the higher risk of ricochets it is no such thing?

 

[StephenToast]

Has the HSE taken into account the very real risks from steel shot rusting into a solid lump under the crimp and forming a dangerous long distance projectile? It's important as they appear to believe that steel is a safe substitute for lead shot when together with the higher risk of ricochets it is no such thing?

The shite that comes out on here sometimes.

Lead has been banned for wildfowl for 20 years. Steel cartridges were being used before that.

If anything is going to rust anywhere it's in a salt environment.

Guess what? This isn't an issue.