West Country Red Deer Stalking

[Keith Edmunds]

The majority of the large consentrations of deer are on areas of land that either dont permit stalking, encourage deer for big bucks trophies (with no thought of a management plan) or let them bide as they are very pro hunting.

I cant emphasise enough that many farmers and landowners, me being one, are still happy to keep deer for the hunt and wouldnt dream of allowing stalking. Couple that with hunting rights on a considerable acarage being owned by a pro hunting company and one begins to understand why stalking is a non starter.

Thanks Charlie, when you say....... 'keep deer for the hunt and wouldn't dream of allowing stalking'....That implies that the deer number is reasonably low or at least, not huge.

It's this bit that I cannot fathom.

Is it a case of too many deer? If so why are there too many deer? Is the real, honest answer...Because of the hunting ban?

I am struggling to join up the dots.

 

[old keeper]

The bulk of the FC land Croydon Hill and the surrounding area which totalls around 1400 ha plus a few other small lots across the moor. They actually do a good job in managing numbers as do the NT on their land.

I confess I'm straying away from just red deer, and I have no knowledge of Croydon Hill. However, I do know Haldon Forest and other areas in South Devon and Fallow are here in extremely large numbers that a very small number of stalkers have no chance whatsoever of controlling.

 

[CharlieT]

Thanks Charlie, when you say....... 'keep deer for the hunt and wouldn't dream of allowing stalking'....That implies that the deer number is reasonably low or at least, not huge.

It's this bit that I cannot fathom.

Is it a case of too many deer? If so why are there too many deer? Is the real, honest answer...Because of the hunting ban?

I am struggling to join up the dots.

I would suggest that the hunting ban in itself has not had any impact, the annual deer count has been very stable over the years at 2500 - 3000 thus maintaining a viable heard, which would prove there are not too many deer on Exmoor.

As I alluded to earlier the only problem we have is deer hearding up, for the reasons I spoke of, in some few areas. If hounds were allowed to hunt these the deer would disperse and the problem would be solved.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I would suggest that the hunting ban in itself has not had any impact, the annual deer count has been very stable over the years at 2500 - 3000 thus maintaining a viable heard, which would prove there are not too many deer on Exmoor.

As I alluded to earlier the only problem we have is deer hearding up, for the reasons I spoke of, in some few areas. If hounds were allowed to hunt these the deer would disperse and the problem would be solved.

Thanks Charlie, the fact that the deer population has stayed pretty stable and that the ban hasn't had much impact on the number of deer makes sense and I fully appreciate how the pack can disperse the deer and split herds in the same way that they can spread the fox population out - especially early season.

 

[Pete6.5]

Thanks for the reply Charlie. Is there a reason why deer stalking is failing to reduce the numbers?

Because the majority of the current rules relating to controlling deer were written when the deer numbers were rock bottom and it takes ages to adjust the rules. Why we don't add a hour each end of the day to legal times rather than giving night licences out or increasing the doe season is just baffling. (Make in 2 hours before and after sunset)

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Because the majority of the current rules relating to controlling deer were written when the deer numbers were rock bottom and it takes ages to adjust the rules. Why we don't add a hour each end of the day to legal times rather than giving night licences out or increasing the doe season is just baffling. (Make in 2 hours before and after sunset)

Interesting point Pete, it would certainly put more in the bag while still allowing the sanctuary of darkness for most of the night.
I guess you believe the red deer population in the West Country is too high?

 

[Pete6.5]

Interesting point Pete, it would certainly put more in the bag while still allowing the sanctuary of darkness for most of the night.
I guess you believe the red deer population in the West Country is too high?

I'm lucky to be able to stalk down there as much as I want and from my experience the population of reds is high but the quality of the big stags isn't what it used to be but that goes for most of the fallow population as well.

 

[Sunrise Stalker]

The stags have now ridded through two of my permissions like they own the place.
Trying to see the bigger picture i.e. tradition, community, employment, herd management etc but the arrogance doesn't help...

 

[willie_gunn]

In my view because hunting with a full pack can no longer legally take place has resulted in the deer hearding up, couple this with a few large land owners for their own reasons not permitting hounds on their land and the proliferation of driven game shooting has resulted in large herds concentrating in certain areas.

I have to admit that I hadn't even considered the game shooting aspect.

West Country - and particularly Exmoor - high pheasant shoots have of course been quite the thing for twenty or more years now. I don't know how much acreage the big shoots cover in total but I would think it is substantial, since the GWCT research on the impact of releasing pheasants on Exmoor shooting estates focused on just 7 shoots that covered some 40,000 acres.

It would indeed be interesting to see any research on how the growth of these shoots over the years has affected deer distribution, as I doubt the prospect of a herd of red deer charging through the drive is one many shoots would appreciate!

 

[willie_gunn]

The stags have now ridded through two of my permissions like they own the place.
Trying to see the bigger picture i.e. tradition, community, employment, herd management etc but the arrogance doesn't help...

Many hunts are sadly their own worst enemies.

I was fortunate to serve my hunting apprenticeship with a master of the old school. A trip to the County Show with her meant you were lucky if you got to see one row of stalls, as everyone from the High Sheriff to the cowman would stop her just to have a chat. She treated each of them just the same, with no airs and graces whatsoever.

These days my local hunt often meet near our village, and sadly it's not unusual for almost the entire field to ride past with barely a wave of acknowledgement or a "good morning" to be offered, hunt staff and masters (largely) excepted. In my view it's the sad result of the increase in those who "hunt to ride" rather than "ride to hunt". They hunt not because of an interest in seeing hounds work or a fascination with the fox, but to enjoy a gallop or canter - all too often over ground where they shouldn't be doing so.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Many hunts are sadly their own worst enemies.

I was fortunate to serve my hunting apprenticeship with a master of the old school. A trip to the County Show with her meant you were lucky if you got to see one row of stalls, as everyone from the High Sheriff to the cowman would stop her just to have a chat. She treated each of them just the same, with no airs and graces whatsoever.

These days my local hunt often meet near our village, and sadly it's not unusual for almost the entire field to ride past with barely a wave of acknowledgement or a "good morning" to be offered, hunt staff and masters (largely) excepted. In my view it's the sad result of the increase in those who "hunt to ride" rather than "ride to hunt". They hunt not because of an interest in seeing hounds work or a fascination with the fox, but to enjoy a gallop or canter - all too often over ground where they shouldn't be doing so.

I totally agree. Recently, during a hunt in our village, while we happened to be walking our teckels across the fields, we were ridden up to and asked if we were antis from London, bloody cheek of it! I guarantee I've participated in more sport and done more for hunting that 90% of the field!

 

[Keith Edmunds]

Well, my copy of the book - 'Rural Wrongs' by Charlie Pye-Smith - arrived yesterday. To be honest, I feel quite saddened, much of the book is well written and does indeed show hunting with hounds as the sporting tradition that many of us love it for, and it does feel like a desperate 'last ditch' attempt to save part of our history.

However, the basis of the book is very much a mud slinging bash at shooting sports. The book takes a very dim view on fox shooting (at night) and does not see deer stalking as being a 'selective' method. Scratch that.....in part of the book deer stalking is not seen to be as 'selective' as Stag Hunting....yet in a few pages it does describe how a deer manager selected quarry on a National Trust reserve. Likewise with the fox population. On one page the fox number is in serious decline - on another page a keeper shoots a couple of hundred a year - every year?? Because the book is made up of may quotations from various parties, it does twist and turn a little. Care, therefore, must be taken if any party - pro or anti - wanted to use excerpts from it as a contradiction could be found by the turn of a page.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

In this weeks 'The Countryman's Weekly' (in shops Jan 3rd) it looks like the book 'Rural Wrongs' hasn't only pee'd off the deer stalkers and fox shooters - the National Working Terrier Federation are pretty miffed too. See attached.

 

[Camelfarm]

Many hunts are sadly their own worst enemies.

I was fortunate to serve my hunting apprenticeship with a master of the old school. A trip to the County Show with her meant you were lucky if you got to see one row of stalls, as everyone from the High Sheriff to the cowman would stop her just to have a chat. She treated each of them just the same, with no airs and graces whatsoever.

These days my local hunt often meet near our village, and sadly it's not unusual for almost the entire field to ride past with barely a wave of acknowledgement or a "good morning" to be offered, hunt staff and masters (largely) excepted. In my view it's the sad result of the increase in those who "hunt to ride" rather than "ride to hunt". They hunt not because of an interest in seeing hounds work or a fascination with the fox, but to enjoy a gallop or canter - all too often over ground where they shouldn't be doing so.

This is very true. My family hunted with foxhounds for years and years - my father was master of 4 packs over the years and my mother was killed in a hunting accident when I was 14 (the level of hate mail I received from supposed pillars of the community - teachers, social workers etc was staggering - "bitch deserved it" kind of tone).

My father's last 2 packs were the Exmoor Foxhounds and the Minehead Harriers - great packs in their day. However the last time I was out following there was hardly anyone out that I knew or from the families I knew - lots of new people who didn't acknowledge a gate opened or closed for them, didn't thank cars for pulling over etc etc. Where I now live in Blackmore Vale country the local communities are broadly anti them. Largely not because of the hunting element but because of perceived snobbery and ill-manners. It's a great shame.

I still stand with all field sports as we have to remain united but I do sometimes find it difficult.

 

[Keith Edmunds]

This is very true. My family hunted with foxhounds for years and years - my father was master of 4 packs over the years and my mother was killed in a hunting accident when I was 14 (the level of hate mail I received from supposed pillars of the community - teachers, social workers etc was staggering - "bitch deserved it" kind of tone).

My father's last 2 packs were the Exmoor Foxhounds and the Minehead Harriers - great packs in their day. However the last time I was out following there was hardly anyone out that I knew or from the families I knew - lots of new people who didn't acknowledge a gate opened or closed for them, didn't thank cars for pulling over etc etc. Where I now live in Blackmore Vale country the local communities are broadly anti them. Largely not because of the hunting element but because of perceived snobbery and ill-manners. It's a great shame.

I still stand with all field sports as we have to remain united but I do sometimes find it difficult.

Sorry to hear of your mothers accident and such a shame that, coming from a family that has put so much in, over the years, you don't receive the respect that you deserve. As you say, from a neutral 'member of the public' many Hunts do not go out of their way to gain public support.

Now, it seems, the last resort is to mud sling over other fieldsports.

 

[Limpo]

Sounds very reminiscent of the line taken re fox hunting

Before the ban my other half used to ride to hounds but she packed it up as being a normal 'working class' gal & with a 'gypsy' horse (actually a registered Appaloosa) she found she was becoming less & less welcome.

It seems, from the little information quoted above, that this 'entitled prejudice' persists amongst those that seek to protect something they enjoy but very likely does little if anything to effectively manage deer!

The farm I help manage is feeling the impact of the local hunt right now - so few landowners want them on their ground that they visit the same places very frequently & unfortunately we're in the middle so inevitably they end up in or around us, even though the landowner here doesn't want them on the farm. Last weekend they met about a mile east of us, this Saturday they're meeting about a mile south of us, then on Tuesday next week they're meeting about a mile east of us at the same place they met last Saturday!

Fair to say that if there's no deer about this Saturday morning & a fox happens to wander across my field of fire then a shot is likely to be fired!

There simply is no place in the world of deer management for people who cannot accept that theirs is not the only way to effectively control deer.

Good post. We should all stick together whatever sport we pursue but it is rare even many stalkers are enemies of most other stalkers. When the foxhunting ban was upcoming I was supporting my local hunt, just put £20 in the cap was stood there with my 23" rabbiting bitch on a lead only to be told "the reason there are no foxes around is because of people like me!" Feck all to do with 13 couples of hounds is it? The mind boggles some times.

 

[Plitts]

I have to admit that I hadn't even considered the game shooting aspect.

West Country - and particularly Exmoor - high pheasant shoots have of course been quite the thing for twenty or more years now. I don't know how much acreage the big shoots cover in total but I would think it is substantial, since the GWCT research on the impact of releasing pheasants on Exmoor shooting estates focused on just 7 shoots that covered some 40,000 acres.

It would indeed be interesting to see any research on how the growth of these shoots over the years has affected deer distribution, as I doubt the prospect of a herd of red deer charging through the drive is one many shoots would appreciate!

My limited experience of pheasants shoots mixing with deer stalking is that the pheasant shoot always takes priority and so from November to January the gamekeeper doesn't want the stalkers disturbing the birds. As this is prime Doe/Hind taking time, the stalkers are left with a couple of months Feb/March to only to take the females.