BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[User00039]

The gut is not a problem hence my response.

Denmark have been using steel shot exclusively for 20 years.... maybe they don't have MRI scans.........

It's not that steel pellets would go flying out your guts. More that there have been cases in USA, one where an individual had steel alloy pellets remaining for months in his guts. As well as bowel cancer. Trying to do an MRI of the cancer was impossible. If they were lead, this would not if been such an issue on imaging as they would not interfere with the magnetic resonance image!
Chances are low of this happening. But then again I have not read of countless cases of folk suffering from lead poisoning from lead pellets. HSE and others should look at other areas of industry where the use of lead causes more frequent and harmful health issues. But they are not because there is money in those areas and they are not so easy targets. Again for myself I am happy to shoot steel. But the cost of replacement barrels and ammunition needs to come more affordable for both shotgun and rifle users, if the shooting community in UK is to continue and allow generations to continue.

 

[User00039]

A friend that sells directly to restaurants told me that a few of his regular restaurants have decided not to purchase in December and the new year game birds they normally would because of the use of steel. Not sure why there is an issue but has made an impact. I will ask for more information.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Conor

As you have repeatedly asked others to do on other posts, please provide the evidence, research and conclusions to support your claims.

For the potential risks of ingested steel shot and MRI - Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment.

For the potential risks of steel shot breaking a tooth, the GWCT advises: " Caution should be taken when eating game, because any type of shot can damage teeth, including lead and bismuth. There is a chance of damage if you were to accidently bite steel shot, but dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting shot since the transition".

On the topic of steel shot the following article may be of interest:

https://www.scribehound.com/cartridges/s/non-toxic-shotgun-cartridges/living-with-steel-in-denmark

 

[timbrayford]

For the potential risks of ingested steel shot and MRI - Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment.

For the potential risks of steel shot breaking a tooth, the GWCT advises: " Caution should be taken when eating game, because any type of shot can damage teeth, including lead and bismuth. There is a chance of damage if you were to accidently bite steel shot, but dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting shot since the transition".

On the topic of steel shot the following article may be of interest:

https://www.scribehound.com/cartridges/s/non-toxic-shotgun-cartridges/living-with-steel-in-denmark

Why on earth are people eating gun shot at all?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

It's not that steel pellets would go flying out your guts. More that there have been cases in USA, one where an individual had steel alloy pellets remaining for months in his guts. As well as bowel cancer. Trying to do an MRI of the cancer was impossible. If they were lead, this would not if been such an issue on imaging as they would not interfere with the magnetic resonance image!
Chances are low of this happening. But then again I have not read of countless cases of folk suffering from lead poisoning from lead pellets. HSE and others should look at other areas of industry where the use of lead causes more frequent and harmful health issues. But they are not because there is money in those areas and they are not so easy targets. Again for myself I am happy to shoot steel. But the cost of replacement barrels and ammunition needs to come more affordable for both shotgun and rifle users, if the shooting community in UK is to continue and allow generations to continue.

Who is saying there are "countless cases of folk suffering from lead poisoning from lead pellets"? Here is a Q&A from Sporting Gun last year:

Has anyone actually died of lead poisoning by eating meat shot with lead?

We are not aware of any cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition, we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than only the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye. Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers’ bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby. For adults, there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of leukaemia, lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer.

Burning questions about the end of lead shot

Explore Burning Questions About The End Of Lead Shot with Shooting UK. Reliable updates and expert commentary on shooting and countryside law in the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

Lead in game meat is potentially a risk to human health via secondary exposure and government guidance and market forces are managing risks via best practice.

 

[User00039]

Conor

As you have repeatedly asked others to do on other posts, please provide the evidence, research and conclusions to support your claims.

You won't get an answer with any peer reviewed papers that's for sure. Just selective comparisons to win an argument.

 

[User00039]

All this is pointless as the government will make the decision and laws will be passed and a consultation is just there to make it look like folk were engaged. It's a done deal, just a matter of when.

 

[timbrayford]

The prime purpose of the projectile is to humanely terminate the life of the target creature, in this respect lead is ballistically superior to steel. Additional hazards with steel are the well publicised damage to Damascus and choked barrels and increased risks to shoot participants and passers by caused by ricochets of steel shot. It would be more responsible of the HSE to promote a ban on steel shot as opposed to promoting it's use.

 

[User00039]

Who is saying there are "countless cases of folk suffering from lead poisoning from lead pellets"? Here is a Q&A from Sporting Gun last year:

Has anyone actually died of lead poisoning by eating meat shot with lead?

We are not aware of any cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition, we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than only the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye. Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers’ bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby. For adults, there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of leukaemia, lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer.

Burning questions about the end of lead shot

Explore Burning Questions About The End Of Lead Shot with Shooting UK. Reliable updates and expert commentary on shooting and countryside law in the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

Lead in game meat is potentially a risk to human health via secondary exposure and government guidance and market forces are managing risks via best practice.

Again missing the bloody point by a mile. Although I wouldn't expect anything less.
Of course lead is hazardous to health. It has been, known for decades.
Lead in bullet's and shot can cause long term health issues!
None of this is new and only recently bothering to do anything.
Again because you only read a few lines I am for alternative to lead shotgun cartridge ammunition.
I was saying I have not read countless accounts of folk dieing from lead shot poisoning, that was all. Didn't once say you said that or anyone else .
Smoking cigarettes causes long term health issues. Govt haven't got off their behinds to ban that yet. Etc ..
There is serious health risks with lead used in energy production. Don't see the government doing anything about that. Etc...
The appendix can store shot in it that has been consumed. Although yes before some one says it most passes through the gut.
I am saying that steel cartridges are still expensive. Bismuth especially so.
With regards to rifle ammunition lead ammunition in certain calibres £20 a box of 20 compared to non lead ammunition of £50 a box of 20.
Reference folk only fire 20 rounds a year at live targets. Negates zeroing (although shouldn't take too many) and folk target shooting, some folk I know shoot hundreds of not thousands of shotgun and firearms cartridges.

 

[User00039]

BASC’s consultation response considered every shooting discipline, both live quarry and target, and the documents we submitted can be downloaded here:

BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

Read BASC's response to the Health and Safety Executive's socio-economic consultation on proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition.

basc.org.uk

In our response we made our position clear to the HSE that BASC was opposed to any further regulation on the use of lead ammunition in the UK for the following reasons:

• Regulations are already in place to mitigate risks to wildfowl from the use of lead shot in wetlands.
• There is clear evidence that lead shot poses a risk to a wide range of bird species in terrestrial habitats and a voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting with shotguns is reducing these risks.
• The shooting sector must be allowed time to develop non-lead shotgun ammunition due to a world shortage of components and the need for manufacturers and assemblers to source new machinery to produce lead shot alternatives and biodegradable wads for all shotgun calibers.
• Lead in game meat is potentially a risk to human health via secondary exposure and government guidance and market forces are managing risks via best practice.
• Lead exposure pathways are not conclusive for livestock, soil, soil organisms, plants, and surface waters; and current legal and regulatory frameworks are in place to manage risks.

BASC remains committed to the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry shooting, which commenced in February 2020. The industry has made enormous strides forward in the development of lead-free shotgun ammunition and biodegradable wads to date, and BASC will continue to drive this process forward.

Any thoughts on retaining lead ammunition for .22 lr specifically?
Also lead ammunition for target shooting (I have read a bit over past few years, but wondered if anything new)?

 

[T.eddie]

I don't believe the cost argument to really hold much water in bring a barrier to entry for people into shooting. Alcohol has got more expensive this doesn't stop people drinking, cars more expensive this doesn't stop people diving, computers/ game consoles/ mobiles all more expensive now yet youngsters tend to have the latest tech. My point here is if you want to do something you generally find a way to make it work

The real issue is if people responded to the consultation or not, as a friend said he saw some data around responses from shooters somewhere and it was woefully low according to him

All this basc bashing is tiresome when some of us read these threads for information and updates

 

[User00039]

Why on earth are people eating gun shot at all?

Not so much for bullets but depending on fragmentation it can happen.
This discussion although on a deer stalking forum is mainly about lead shot from shotgun cartridges.

 

[User00039]

I don't believe the cost argument to really hold much water in bring a barrier to entry for people into shooting. Alcohol has got more expensive this doesn't stop people drinking, cars more expensive this doesn't stop people diving, computers/ game consoles/ mobiles all more expensive now yet youngsters tend to have the latest tech. My point here is if you want to do something you generally find a way to make it work

The real issue is if people responded to the consultation or not, as a friend said he saw some data around responses from shooters somewhere and it was woefully low according to him

All this basc bashing is tiresome when some of us read these threads for information and u

I don't believe the cost argument to really hold much water in bring a barrier to entry for people into shooting. Alcohol has got more expensive this doesn't stop people drinking, cars more expensive this doesn't stop people diving, computers/ game consoles/ mobiles all more expensive now yet youngsters tend to have the latest tech. My point here is if you want to do something you generally find a way to make it work

The real issue is if people responded to the consultation or not, as a friend said he saw some data around responses from shooters somewhere and it was woefully low according to him

All this basc bashing is tiresome when some of us read these threads for information and updates

That's nice for you. But some younger folk getting into shooting its an additional cost depending on circumstances.

It is quite difficult to reach folk. I don't usually spend too much time on forum's for today's reasons exactly. Shame license holders can't be contacted directly. Would make it a lot easier.

Tiresome reading posts like this as well. But we all have our crosses to bear. Wasn't actually bashing, asking for some information but as usual get corporate response.

 

[T.eddie]

That's nice for you. But some younger folk getting into shooting its an additional cost depending on circumstances.

It is quite difficult to reach folk. I don't usually spend too much time on forum's for today's reasons exactly. Shame license holders can't be contacted directly. Would make it a lot easier.

Tiresome reading posts like this as well. But we all have our crosses to bear. Wasn't actually bashing, asking for some information but as usual get corporate response.

Wasn't aimed at you, however many things are an additional cost. My point is we make things work for us to allow us to do the things we enjoy. You don't need to top range of everything to get into shooting, you also don't need to be out every day/week/month shooting thousands of cartridges or rounds. I would love to be able to do that but budget and family time won't allow it so I don't

 

[Apthorpe]

Who is saying there are "countless cases of folk suffering from lead poisoning from lead pellets"? Here is a Q&A from Sporting Gun last year:

Has anyone actually died of lead poisoning by eating meat shot with lead?

We are not aware of any cases of people dying from swallowing pieces of lead shot or eating lots of lead-contaminated game meat. The evidenced impacts are more subtle than that and are now better understood by scientists and can unfortunately cause underlying health issues for some of us.

When we eat game meat contaminated with lead ammunition, we absorb some of that lead in our blood, tissue and bone.

X-ray and chemical studies of large and small game shot with lead ammunition reveal that lead contamination is much more extensive than only the wound channel and most of it cannot be detected by eye. Due to hormonal changes during pregnancy, lead that has been stored in the skeleton is released into the blood, exposing both mother and foetus. As a result, high levels of lead in mothers’ bones have been identified as a risk factor for impaired mental development in infants.

Developing brains exposed to low levels of lead are at risk for attention-related behavioural problems, decreased cognitive performance and increased incidence of problem behaviours.

This is why the Food Standards Agency advises against frequent consumption of lead-shot game by toddlers, children, pregnant women and women trying for a baby. For adults, there is growing evidence around lead exposure and associated increased risk of leukaemia, lung, stomach, and urinary-bladder cancer.

Burning questions about the end of lead shot

Explore Burning Questions About The End Of Lead Shot with Shooting UK. Reliable updates and expert commentary on shooting and countryside law in the UK.

www.shootinguk.co.uk

Lead in game meat is potentially a risk to human health via secondary exposure and government guidance and market forces are managing risks via best prpractice.

Best practice, my ar5e! Lead compounds are still legal and widely used in road paint. Using lead is mandatory on church roofs and some listed buildings; the leached lead compounds apparently killing every living organism they drain over. Lead flashing being welded in open air. Lead used for cable sheathing, yachts keels etc etc.
It is simply not credible that this business with ammunition is only a proportionate reaction to a safety concern with best practice in the light of obviously greater risks being found with other uses of lead.

While BASC has done well to oppose restrictions in the recent response, it seems somewhat perverse that its spent the previous three years undermining that case with some controversial material.

 

[User00039]

Wasn't aimed at you, however many things are an additional cost. My point is we make things work for us to allow us to do the things we enjoy. You don't need to top range of everything to get into shooting, you also don't need to be out every day/week/month shooting thousands of cartridges or rounds. I would love to be able to do that but budget and family time won't allow it so I don't

Thank you for bothering to respond.

My thoughts are on the more organised side of things. You can already pay a few hundred pounds to go clay pigeon shooting. Clubs double the price of ammunition, don't get me wrong they have overheads and are not a charity. I was fortunate to grow up on a farm, my first rim fire cost a few quid. I got a baikal for rough shooting, even turned up at shoot once or twice. even now rim fire and shot guns can be had for a few hundred pounds if circumstances are right. And you are correct if someone really wants to do it they will find away. I grew up in the generation of four tv channels, a foot ball or rugby ball and firearms, no computer or games console when i was younger.
It's just overall it will reduce the number of participants, which I see as a bit of shame in some respects.
Only time I shot thousands of rounds was when someone else was paying for it

 

[User00039]

Best practice, my ar5e! Lead compounds are still legal and widely used in road paint. Using lead is mandatory on church roofs and some listed buildings; the leached lead compounds apparently killing every living organism they drain over. Lead flashing being welded in open air. Lead used for cable sheathing, yachts keels etc etc.
It is simply not credible that this business with ammunition is only a proportionate reaction to a safety concern with best practice in the light of obviously greater risks being found with other uses of lead.

While BASC has done well to oppose restrictions in the recent response, it seems somewhat perverse that its spent the previous three years undermining that case with some controversial material.

I know you said etc... but don't forget another major contributor, depending on your location., aviation fuel.
Nearly 400k (rounded) people live within 4km of an airport whom are at risk or aerosol tetraethyl lead. The govt don't give a **** about that £££££££....

 

[User00039]

Wasn't aimed at you, however many things are an additional cost. My point is we make things work for us to allow us to do the things we enjoy. You don't need to top range of everything to get into shooting, you also don't need to be out every day/week/month shooting thousands of cartridges or rounds. I would love to be able to do that but budget and family time won't allow it so I don't

ps don't need

 

[LuckyEddie]

The gut is not a problem hence my response.

Are you a radiographer or a medical professional in some way to be able to state this?

I had a hole in my duodenum, caused by a gallstone.
Three special stents air freighted 1st class from South Korea didn’t help.
The hole was getting bigger which meant that food wasn’t getting to my bowels.
To such an extent that I was down to 47.5kg. The doctors were so concerned that they gave TPN feed through my veins to keep me alive and stabilised to get me through the operation needed to save me.
Otherwise the next stage was organ failure and death due to malnutrition.

A colleague‘s wife passed away a year ago last week from complications around her perforated gut which she’d had for a few years, during which time she needed stoma bags.

There are a number of people world wide who have gut problems causing serious illness, in fact I was contacted by a SD member about my experience with stoma bags which he would need due to his illness.

 

[T.eddie]

Thank you for bothering to respond.

My thoughts are on the more organised side of things. You can already pay a few hundred pounds to go clay pigeon shooting. Clubs double the price of ammunition, don't get me wrong they have overheads and are not a charity. I was fortunate to grow up on a farm, my first rim fire cost a few quid. I got a baikal for rough shooting, even turned up at shoot once or twice. even now rim fire and shot guns can be had for a few hundred pounds if circumstances are right. And you are correct if someone really wants to do it they will find away. I grew up in the generation of four tv channels, a foot ball or rugby ball and firearms, no computer or games console when i was younger.
It's just overall it will reduce the number of participants, which I see as a bit of shame in some respects.
Only time I shot thousands of rounds was when someone else was paying for it

Yeah it won't help things if shooting becomes more expensive. The biggest threat I believe is the anti shooting/ hunting rhetoric that is so commonly called out these days in the media