How do Highland Estates staff the deer side

[TheDeerWalker]

I'm sure by asking this all that will happen is it will show my naivety on the subject and I'm sure the answer is going to politics and budget, but hey thought ask on a semi anonymous then in person!

I've been very lucky and this year have been asked to help with the hind cull on an estate, and will be back next year taking guests out in the rut and helping with the Hinds. This estate is a Grouse moor with a lowground Pheasants and Partidge. Only two Gamekeepers and they each year have to take in the region of 150 hinds off the hill (think about 50 Stags too, but not sure about that one.) This reasonability is split between the keepers, along side their main jobs and commerical shoot days that are happening during the same time. I got lucky and know one of them reasonably well which is how I got asked to help out, but it got me thinking they are obviously needing the help as it's a tall ask and seemly like the deer is another full-time role during the season so why isn't there a stalker. The keepers both love deer but it feels like a chore by the end. I grow up knowing of the hardy highland stalkers, that lived on the estates and where solely in charge of Deer management, is that job being replaced with Gamekeepers? Is it just that there isn't so much money in deer so fanically the concept of a estate stalker is harder to justify? Or are these now more likely to be contract roles?

It has been something I ponder on the drive home down the A9, and so I thought I'd ask to educate myself.

 

[enfieldspares]

Pheasants give the most return on the outlay. At £40 a bird shot a one hundred bird day that's £40 x 100 = £4,000 income in but a day. Offset the cost of beaters (I've ignored the cost of the keeper or stalker) and there's still a good profit as against £500 that the estate might charge for shooting a beast with a good head.

 

[RJD]

There’s more profit in a £500 stag, than £4k 100 bird day, possibly better to explain it as ‘less loss‘

 

[Bo Diddley]

Cutbacks. It's happening everywhere, a big pheasant & partridge shoot a few miles from me had 4 full-time keepers and a warrener + a woodsman to help maintain the woods for the shooting, his boss was the head keeper in effect.... fast forward 30 years and they have gone down to one keeper this past season... he is getting "Mates" to help with vermin control etcetera, talk about doing things on the cheap

 

[75]

Is it just that there isn't so much money in deer so fanically the concept of a estate stalker is harder to justify? Or are these now more likely to be contract roles?

There isn’t much money in any of it, hence the need for as few staff as possible to do as many different tasks as possible…

Never has it been easier to make a small fortune from a shooting estate. It’s just these days you have to start with an even larger fortune…

 

[Freeforester]

Factor in the factor factor. Not all bosses want to run the place properly, they have their own priorities which often mean that resources and manpower get stretched beyond what would be considered reasonable and/or proper. Usually the management of such places is delegated to an agent, who is basically paid more than the on the ground working staff to deliver the results as desired by the owners, usually in the most cost-effective manner. Some places get around this by finding a good and able worker/manager, thereby freeing up resources that would otherwise go to the agent, and the better ones deploy such resources into their operations team. But not all.

 

[User00040]

There isn’t much money in any of it, hence the need for as few staff as possible to do as many different tasks as possible…

Never has it been easier to make a small fortune from a shooting estate. It’s just these days you have to start with an even larger fortune…

Still possible to turn a profit running a Highland estate.

Just need as many wind turbines as possible, hydro scheme, apply for all the grants under the sun, creative accountant and shell company in the Bahamas...

 

[Lancaster]

I think these days you will be lucky to find decent driven pheasant for £40 per bird, more likely to be south of £60 + VAT, so 20 150 bird days comes to £180,000.
Priorities on different Scottish estates vary, some lose less money on Agriculture, some less money on forestry, and some less money on deer, common denominator is that there are only a few that make a lot of money per acre of land.

 

[AGR]

Pheasants give the most return on the outlay. At £40 a bird shot a one hundred bird day that's £40 x 100 = £4,000 income in but a day. Offset the cost of beaters (I've ignored the cost of the keeper or stalker) and there's still a good profit as against £500 that the estate might charge for shooting a beast with a good head.

Thems cheap pheasants round your way!

 

[AGR]

There isn’t much money in any of it, hence the need for as few staff as possible to do as many different tasks as possible…

Never has it been easier to make a small fortune from a shooting estate. It’s just these days you have to start with an even larger fortune…

More money in carbon credits and rewilding these days.

 

[Dave_45]

I know of one big perthshire estate that has cut down on keepers and has the ever willing beaters , also doing the fox AND the roe.

 

[Bowland blades]

I'm sure by asking this all that will happen is it will show my naivety on the subject and I'm sure the answer is going to politics and budget, but hey thought ask on a semi anonymous then in person!

I've been very lucky and this year have been asked to help with the hind cull on an estate, and will be back next year taking guests out in the rut and helping with the Hinds. This estate is a Grouse moor with a lowground Pheasants and Partidge. Only two Gamekeepers and they each year have to take in the region of 150 hinds off the hill (think about 50 Stags too, but not sure about that one.) This reasonability is split between the keepers, along side their main jobs and commerical shoot days that are happening during the same time. I got lucky and know one of them reasonably well which is how I got asked to help out, but it got me thinking they are obviously needing the help as it's a tall ask and seemly like the deer is another full-time role during the season so why isn't there a stalker. The keepers both love deer but it feels like a chore by the end. I grow up knowing of the hardy highland stalkers, that lived on the estates and where solely in charge of Deer management, is that job being replaced with Gamekeepers? Is it just that there isn't so much money in deer so fanically the concept of a estate stalker is harder to justify? Or are these now more likely to be contract roles?

It has been something I ponder on the drive home down the A9, and so I thought I'd ask to educate myself.

large estates use Venison sales to off set just some of the costs involved with the expenses of the stalkers employed . They actually run that side of things at a loss. Not hard to calculate from dealers prices and stalkers pay , chillers , vehicles pick-ups , ATVs , argocats . Seen the price of a new argo and witnessed the chain jamming up , breaking , loosing tyres and needing to call in help on recovery ( maybe run their own workshops and a mechanic ? )

 

[Dave_45]

large estates use Venison sales to off set just some of the costs involved with the expenses of the stalkers employed . They actually run that side of things at a loss. Not hard to calculate from dealers prices and stalkers pay , chillers , vehicles pick-ups , ATVs , argocats . Seen the price of a new argo and witnessed the chain jamming up , breaking , loosing tyres and needing to call in help on recovery ( maybe run their own workshops and a mechanic ? )

I've said it before ,If it wasn't for exuberantly rich estate owners , who have it as bragging or a plaything...
A whole heap of estates in Scotland would be country parks by now if it wasn't for them, because they operate at a loss , financially.
The owners main line of work seems to swallow the financial burden with ease.

 

[Bowland blades]

I've said it before ,If it wasn't for exuberantly rich estate owners , who have it as bragging or a plaything...
A whole heap of estates in Scotland would be country parks by now if it wasn't for them, because they operate at a loss , financially.
The owners main line of work seems to swallow the financial burden with ease.

Exactly !

 

[Bowland blades]

There’s more profit in a £500 stag, than £4k 100 bird day, possibly better to explain it as ‘less loss‘

Not on the highland estates , there will generally be a bigger bill than they can generate from income . There are commercial shoots that make net profit there will be few if any doing that on highland deer

 

[Freeforester]

I've said it before ,If it wasn't for exuberantly rich estate owners , who have it as bragging or a plaything...
A whole heap of estates in Scotland would be country parks by now if it wasn't for them, because they operate at a loss , financially.
The owners main line of work seems to swallow the financial burden with ease.

There’s no slowing in the demand for estates. They stopped making land some years ago now. Carrying the burden for a few years can be tax efficient as well as a canny investment, and is a market open to all.

 

[.222roebuck]

I'm sure by asking this all that will happen is it will show my naivety on the subject and I'm sure the answer is going to politics and budget, but hey thought ask on a semi anonymous then in person!

I've been very lucky and this year have been asked to help with the hind cull on an estate, and will be back next year taking guests out in the rut and helping with the Hinds. This estate is a Grouse moor with a lowground Pheasants and Partidge. Only two Gamekeepers and they each year have to take in the region of 150 hinds off the hill (think about 50 Stags too, but not sure about that one.) This reasonability is split between the keepers, along side their main jobs and commerical shoot days that are happening during the same time. I got lucky and know one of them reasonably well which is how I got asked to help out, but it got me thinking they are obviously needing the help as it's a tall ask and seemly like the deer is another full-time role during the season so why isn't there a stalker. The keepers both love deer but it feels like a chore by the end. I grow up knowing of the hardy highland stalkers, that lived on the estates and where solely in charge of Deer management, is that job being replaced with Gamekeepers? Is it just that there isn't so much money in deer so fanically the concept of a estate stalker is harder to justify? Or are these now more likely to be contract roles?

It has been something I ponder on the drive home down the A9, and so I thought I'd ask to educate myself.

Because it’s cheaper to overload the keepers with work rather than pay a full time stalker and house him

 

[opticron1]

Because it’s cheaper to overload the keepers with work rather than pay a full time stalker and house him

And in a few places, it's far easier to dispense with the stalker, convert the ex-stalkers house into fancy self catering accommodation and shoot out the deer for "rewilding"..........

 

[Bowland blades]

There’s no slowing in the demand for estates. They stopped making land some years ago now. Carrying the burden for a few years can be tax efficient as well as a canny investment, and is a market open to all.

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Land ? They stopped making it don't we know ! it goes up and down shorter term but ALWAYS increases over time

 

[Oldstalker]

I remember going to a Speyside deer conference and Jamie Williamson - well known owner from that part of the world being very frank about his finances. This from a man whose estate accommodates more people than Aviemore most summer weekends. He has, starting at the top, grouse and red deer on the hill, forestry designed to produce an income about 9 years in 10, hydroponic fruit in the old walled garden, pony-trekking and a home farm, fishings on the Spey, guests in the house, and 2 large cabin/caravan/camping sites. Oh and a quarry as well.
It was, he said, his desire to be legal and to try with this variety of enterprises to at least break even. Stalking clients produce little revenue and no profit, grouse driving teams are better but the profit is largely in accommodating them. [Their wives did make a contribution to the local economy in their spending.] Most of the other enterprises "washed their faces" except the cabin/camping sites which were profitable, but not all estates are right alongside busy main roads. He wanted repeat business where possible but because opium dens which are also brothels are illegal he could not run one of them!
The Seafield Estates also presented at the same symposium and told a similar economic tale. On the sporting side only their grouse driving made a profit (most years). Perhaps that is why the antis are so virulent in their attacks on grouse moor management as they perceive it as the financial achilles heel of the upland landowners.
Owning a highland estate is like owning a seagoing yacht of which people say it is a hole in the ocean into which you pour money - except that in the case of a highland estate the numbers are bigger.