New dog and raw feed

[Beretta V]

Hi all,
On Saturday I’m picking up a 2year old springer and she is currently on a dry food that I can easily get and some chicken mince.
I have never fed raw before and was wondering what is the best raw to actually feed.
I will give her a pigs ear regularly as I want to keep her teeth in good condition.
I tried various things with my old cocker but she just wouldn’t eat anything other than a pigs ear and her dry food.
So basically after some advice on what you guys feed and where is the best place to get raw from as pets at home will be expensive and probably not the best quality.
Regards Dan

 

[PMA]

We took in a 2 year old working cocker was on dry food previous owner said she was a bit “loose” put her straight on raw food never looked back !

 

[splash]

Raw food but use complete .
Tripe :- black oily sh**
Chicken :- soft. “
Beef compete :- hard crumble’s easy sh1

 

[Buchan]

This is a bit like asking this list to recommend a rifle or a scope...

Feed raw it if you want and you can do it in a balanced way (and have no one who is immunosuppressed in the home). But bear in mind that the claims for raw feeding's benefit are not supported by any evidence, they are just a feeling. There is a very loud, very misguided narrative stating modern dog food is the cause of multiple illnesses and it often has a very anti-vet element, suggesting we are all in a conspiracy with the manufacturers. Dogs are scavengers and with our breeding have become very adaptable to any food source, including grains. So the general advice vets give to owners is pick a good balanced diet that you can trust, which usually means one by the bigger companies. This is because most owners want convenience, haven't the time to balance a food and don't like the mess of feeding a whole rabbit. Do we sell it - of course, we have staff to pay (including ourselves).

There are plenty of folk on here who regularly feed what they have shot and that's fine - you know the source and it hasn't been minced and come from several sources. This is where I have a big problem with raw - the potential for contamination. I've reported on here of the 100+ cats with TB from raw feeding and there are papers showing higher levels of salmonella etc with raw food.

So personally I'd stick with the kibble and the odd extra from your shooting. The pig's ear is a chewing snack and unlikely to clean the teeth.

As an aside, one area we, as vets have possibly been wrong is to advocate "one food and stick to it" for puppies. The next one I get will get a variety of types of food, as there is some thought that this allows the gut to be more resilient to changes.

 

[John Gryphon]

For any dog.
Line up a few bowls containing
1 kibble
2 chopped beef or whole beef/deer
3 canned dog food
4 home cooked rice, vegs and mince or some other cheyte
5 raw tripe, beef, deer or sheep
6 any commercial dog food
7 chicken or parts thereof
8 the list goes on

The winner is num 5, 99% of all dogs will go straight to the tripe even if they have never had it previously.
Pigs ears don`t do teeth work like proper bones do btw.

 

[nun_hunter]

I buy mine from Middleton Raw pet foods and it's delivered by DPD. It's convenient, clean, comes in sensible packaging and is cheaper than a lot of the portions you can buy in pet shops with fancy packaging.

My dog loves it, his poo is easy to pick up and not really smelly at all (unless he's had a big chunk of venison!).

 

[VSS]

Feed raw it if you want and you can do it in a balanced way (and have no one who is immunosuppressed in the home).

Why's that?

 

[Buchan]

Balanced - getting the mineral content right, Calcium/phosphorous ratios are critical especially in pups, immunosuppressed - dogs on raw excrete more salmonella etc and hence are a risk. One study here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jsap.13000
I have heard (from an APHA vet, so a good source) that there is a concern about salmonella resistance due to imported meat samples.
As I said, feeding your own is probably not an issue. The commercial diets are more of a problem.

 

[VSS]

Balanced - getting the mineral content right, Calcium/phosphorous ratios are critical especially in pups, immunosuppressed - dogs on raw excrete more salmonella etc and hence are a risk. One study here: Raw diets for dogs and cats: a review, with particular reference to microbiological hazards
I have heard (from an APHA vet, so a good source) that there is a concern about salmonella resistance due to imported meat samples.
As I said, feeding your own is probably not an issue. The commercial diets are more of a problem.

Thanks.
As an immunosuppressed person who also feeds a certain amount of raw offal etc to my dogs, I was just curious to know what ghastly ending awaits me as a result!

 

[John Gryphon]

I was just curious to know what ghastly ending awaits me as a result!

Ebola, definitely Ebola.

 

[VSS]

Ebola, definitely Ebola.

I thought I was feeling a bit peaky.

 

[John Gryphon]

I thought I was feeling a bit peaky.

You will feel like Southdown ram for the first three weeks lol.

 

[VSS]

You will feel like Southdown ram for the first three weeks lol.

Small, cute and furry?

 

[Buchan]

Thanks.
As an immunosuppressed person who also feeds a certain amount of raw offal etc to my dogs, I was just curious to know what ghastly ending awaits me as a result!

If it is your own offal you'll be fine (unless it is your own offal...)

It's the same basic HACCP principles of food hygiene, the bigger the surface area, the higher the risk

 

[Selous]

For any dog.
Line up a few bowls containing
1 kibble
2 chopped beef or whole beef/deer
3 canned dog food
4 home cooked rice, vegs and mince or some other cheyte
5 raw tripe, beef, deer or sheep
6 any commercial dog food
7 chicken or parts thereof
8 the list goes on

The winner is num 5, 99% of all dogs will go straight to the tripe even if they have never had it previously.
Pigs ears don`t do teeth work like proper bones do btw.

And if you do the same with kids they will gravitate to the mars bars …. It doesn’t mean it’s good for them though!!

 

[John Gryphon]

One study here: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jsap.13000

I had a read through that and for all the scientific evidence it contains I will suggest that for the dog owner/provider that feeds a balanced diet of raw but wild meat/offal/bones that there isn't going to be a problem.
There can be a contamination risk in commercial processors of course but anecdotal evidence will show among those that feed raw wild that the trips to the vet are non existent.
As far as salmonella I continue to be amazed as to what my dog produces after a few weeks in the ground, meaty bones that would make a blowfly spew yet they have no effect on him/them.

Looking at dog "henrys" one will notice that if a dog is fed three cups of dry food he/she will crap out 2.85 cups of turd (seemingly) yet when a dog is tossed a kilo of meat it will crap out 10% ...that suggests that the commercials are loaded with fillers that the dog gets marginal benefit from except to pack out its stomach.

And if you do the same with kids they will gravitate to the mars bars …. It doesn’t mean it’s good for them though!!

Ye cant compare a kid to a dog ha ha...dogs are more intelligent IE they KNOW that the tripe is real value for their systems whereas kids dont give a tinkers.

 

[Bowland blades]

dont go mad on raw feeding imho , the science does not add up to anything any better and dogs have been eating cooked food as long has man has , having had more dog generations to human ones in theory they are more away from raw meat than us regards evolution?
I feed raw venison etc because I feel its good for the dog to know what it is hunting is food , not all dogs do well on it though . Its also a lot more work and more storage issues.
Buying in raw ? Personally i think that's barmy because of said storage issues though chucking the dogs slots , heads and meat trimmings that would just go in the bin ? Makes a keener dog when its faced with tracking a wounded beast etc

 

[Selous]

I had a read through that and for all the scientific evidence it contains I will suggest that for the dog owner/provider that feeds a balanced diet of raw but wild meat/offal/bones that there isn't going to be a problem.
There can be a contamination risk in commercial processors of course but anecdotal evidence will show among those that feed raw wild that the trips to the vet are non existent.
As far as salmonella I continue to be amazed as to what my dog produces after a few weeks in the ground, meaty bones that would make a blowfly spew yet they have no effect on him/them.

Looking at dog "henrys" one will notice that if a dog is fed three cups of dry food he/she will crap out 2.85 cups of turd (seemingly) yet when a dog is tossed a kilo of meat it will crap out 10% ...that suggests that the commercials are loaded with fillers that the dog gets marginal benefit from except to pack out its stomach.


Ye cant compare a kid to a dog ha ha...dogs are more intelligent IE they KNOW that the tripe is real value for their systems whereas kids dont give a tinkers.

Errrr … yes you absolutely can!! To think otherwise is foolish!! Like every other species they eat what is palatable to them and this is not in any way the same as what is good for them. Feed them a totally meat diet and see what happens! It’s called nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism and it’s not good!! Same with horses, they love sweet spring grass and they are well adapted to eat grass but overdo it and they get laminitis! Feed them less palatable fodder like older standing grass or old hay and they don’t get laminitis, are healthier and live longer!! The natural diet for dogs at least balances most things by the high value palatable foods being in limited supply forcing them to scavenge less high value foods which increase diversity in the diet and therefore likelihood of better balance overall. This isn’t necessarily true where we feed dogs as it’s easy to overfeed the meat and unbalance things like the calcium to phosphorus ratio.
Personally I regard the raw feeding fad as a load of tripe (pun intended) I don’t accept that cooking food is so harmful. I get that people want to give a home produced diet and I support that but for the love of God cook anything that you would cook before you yourself would eat it rather than feeding it raw! Cooking reduces the bacterial load and therefore the exposure of the dog and owners to potentially highly pathogenic bacteria. Before anyone asks yes I have seen a number of dogs die or become seriously ill as a consequence of raw feeding and as Buchan has rightly pointed out there are well documented cases of serious diseases being transmitted via commercial raw feeds.

 

[nun_hunter]

Looking at dog "henrys" one will notice that if a dog is fed three cups of dry food he/she will crap out 2.85 cups of turd (seemingly) yet when a dog is tossed a kilo of meat it will crap out 10% ...that suggests that the commercials are loaded with fillers that the dog gets marginal benefit from except to pack out its stomach.

This for me makes the most sense to feed raw. Even the best quality high protein kibble still produces a load more crap than raw food.

When my dogs have been on raw and fed twice a day they've had a max of two bowl movements a day which are pretty small, don't smell that bad (as far as poo goes) and are reasonably firm. Any kibble and it's multiple toilet trips, runny and stinks to high heaven.

A bit of straining and pushing it out (rather than it pouring out) means the anal glands get emptied too. I've never known a raw fed dog to have to go to the vets and have it's glands emptied, whilst everyone I've spoken to who has had this done feeds a cheap kibble. Anecdotal but makes sense to me.

 

[John Gryphon]

Errrr … yes you absolutely can!!

Yes and have done with farm bred hunting dogs over a lot of years. There is raw cheyte bought in a pack and there is raw as in a deer carcase, (or other) today a leg chopped up with an axe that`s fed to the dog/s hide and bone included. I will drop the guts out of a deer and the dogs will eat the fat off the runners, that is after the heart kidneys liver etc. Its balanced by them and fat is important especially in winter for the warmth.
Will add I often eat the livers, makes me shine lol.

Before anyone asks yes I have seen a number of dogs die or become seriously ill as a consequence of raw feeding

I can counter that with perhaps the raw food that has been fed to them is full of chemicals, wild raw game certainly isn't and dogs never ever get crook from it.

I have oft wondered how strong is the 40ml of chemical pour on when its applied to a 1000lb steers backline that can work its way through the hide into the body/bloodstream and still be effective.. we eat the beef and so do the dogs. Is there a possibility that the dogs react to these chems? Yes there is a withholding period of X amount of days after drenching but there is always a "but"