Digital or glass.

[mealiejimmy]

I can’t help feeling that the rise of night vision etc is just making the whole job a lot harder. Deer are now be pushed, stressed through hunting pressure for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

This has two effects

1) it will push them into the further reaches of any terratory and into the deepest and darkest woods etc. or right into the open areas where they cannot be approached.

2) they will pushed out and travel into areas where they are left in peace but not necessarily wanted - suburban gardens, nature reserves etc etc.

This incessant pressure just makes the whole job that much harder.

Much better to have long periods when the deer are left alone, then hit them hard for a couple of days. If it means having to bring in other stalkers then so be it.

This is the way it used to be done, especially for hind culls etc. and would be done with stalkers working together with each other.

The "pressure" that you speak of doesn't seem to have hampered their breeding efforts
The numbers of deer in the UK have never been higher and in many areas they have already become a pest species
As such, they need to be controlled and allowing the use of technology that makes that job easier is surely a positive

Cheers

Bruce

 

[mealiejimmy]

How did everyone manage before digital arrived? They did so by accepting that nature should, and will, win the battle with the final minutes of legal light. Now people have got the facility to shoot way beyond legal light, it draws in too much ambiguity and plays on the human nature of temptation. It would be very interesting to see just how many are in breach of the law, whether it be by seconds, minutes or more... but officer I didn't check the time, my digital scope was still in day mode The simplicity of the recording function has also bred a generation who must upload their kill video to every form of social media to demonstrate how much of a superstar they are. That trend is worse in those managing foxes, but rapidly becoming very common in those managing deer. Really useful for pursuits already under significant scrutiny! I personally think deer management with digital scopes (thermal, day or nv) should be banned, unless under night licence.

How did everyone manage before glass scopes?
How did everyone manage before rifle
How did everyone manage before the musket
How did everyone manage before the bow and arrow
etc, etc

Cheers

Bruce

 

[VSS]

The "pressure" that you speak of doesn't seem to have hampered their breeding efforts

That is perhaps because the "pressure" that @Heym SR20 speaks of is pushing deer into areas where they are able to breed unmolested, such as urban areas, nature reserves, etc. In fact, anywhere that shooting doesn't take place or where they're inaccessible.
I'm sure we're all aware of "sanctuaries" that provide a safe haven for large numbers of deer that then spill over into the surrounding area and cause problems. The slightest pressure and they simply return to the sanctuary.

 

[Pete6.5]

If you are stalking for sport or hobby glass all day but if you have serious numbers to get and it is your job digital is better.

 

[JH83]

As other have said, horses for courses. I have both (pard 4K and Zeiss 3-12).

For culling, where deer are under pressure and only appear in the last few minutes of legal light, digital is far ahead. Good European glass is excellent and takes you a long way into the evening, but loses out head to head with digital. They are an effective culling tool in half light, the justification for using one is down to the individual, the nature of their permission, and cull quota.

However, if you are hill stalking in bright sunlight or target shooting at range then the roles reverse, while digital is usable it really won’t hold a candle to even modest glass. You aren’t likely to see many at a PRS meet!

I know a few tenured deer managers that have bought them and got rid, however myself and many others love them. Marmite it seems.

The recent developments with battery tech on things like the HIK 4K really demolish the ‘oh no it’s battery powered’ worries. If you can manage not to run out your mobile phone, you’ll manage with a 4K.

I’d imagine the next generations of digital will however, end the argument-when inevitably good European glass meets digital.

 

[Heym SR20]

That is perhaps because the "pressure" that @Heym SR20 speaks of is pushing deer into areas where they are able to breed unmolested, such as urban areas, nature reserves, etc. In fact, anywhere that shooting doesn't take place or where they're inaccessible.
I'm sure we're all aware of "sanctuaries" that provide a safe haven for large numbers of deer that then spill over into the surrounding area and cause problems. The slightest pressure and they simply return to the sanctuary.

Exactly. In my experience if you have lots of deer to shoot, get a few friends, colleagues, employees together. Put them out in various positions and take out several in a short period of time. Far more effective to take 20 in one day and leave between three or four of you them alone for 19 days, than trying to take to one or two at time on your own and out every day.

 

[nun_hunter]

However, if you are hill stalking in bright sunlight or target shooting at range then the roles reverse, while digital is usable it really won’t hold a candle to even modest glass..

In those circumstances then quality Japanese ED glass at half the price of European glass performs better or at least on par.

The argument for European glass is it's low light performance against cheaper glass, but now even cheaper digital beats that.

The niche window that expensive European glass fills is slowly becoming even smaller in the UK.

 

[nun_hunter]

Exactly. In my experience if you have lots of deer to shoot, get a few friends, colleagues, employees together. Put them out in various positions and take out several in a short period of time. Far more effective to take 20 in one day and leave between three or four of you them alone for 19 days, than trying to take to one or two at time on your own and out every day.

It has been pointed out in the various other threads about deer numbers and new people taking up deer stalking that the majority of established stalkers do not want to share under any circumstances. If they did then we probably wouldn't have so many deer

 

[Heym SR20]

It has been pointed out in the various other threads about deer numbers and new people taking up deer stalking that the majority of established stalkers do not want to share under any circumstances. If they did then we probably wouldn't have so many deer

And there in lies the challenge.

I can however foresee that someday we might realise the benefits of neighbours working together and deer drives will become an enjoyable part of rural life, in many ways taking over from driven phaesant shooting. Even the likes of the P word would struggle to argue against such activities as he and his chronies all seem to be anti deer.

 

[Acm]

I’d hazard a guess that anyone who is actually shooting a large amount of deer is already utilising digital and thermal. I swapped to a digital from high end leica scopes on two out of 4 rifles and I’d never go back. Way more useful features, out last week with my mate using an £1800 Schmidt t96 and a £800 Alpex absolutely smashed it for low light capability, sure it doesn’t hold its value very well by comparison, but I don’t buy my gear worrying about residuals, I buy it to kill deer with.

 

[Pete6.5]

It has been pointed out in the various other threads about deer numbers and new people taking up deer stalking that the majority of established stalkers do not want to share under any circumstances. If they did then we probably wouldn't have so many deer

This theory isn't true in my opinion. I've been involved with deer management for a while and I run both examples. I stalk a lot on my own and I have helpers. When I'm on my own I keep highly efficient and average just over a hour per deer (I keep very detailed records). When I take people out high seats (on their own) and stalking my efficiency drops and what they shoot doesn't make up for my drop. I'm not moaning about it because I enjoy the fact I can share what I have and they can go out as much or little as they want and I enjoy their company and I still meet my cull targets.

 

[Tim.243]

This theory isn't true in my opinion. I've been involved with deer management for a while and I run both examples. I stalk a lot on my own and I have helpers. When I'm on my own I keep highly efficient and average just over a hour per deer (I keep very detailed records). When I take people out high seats (on their own) and stalking my efficiency drops and what they shoot doesn't make up for my drop. I'm not moaning about it because I enjoy the fact I can share what I have and they can go out as much or little as they want and I enjoy their company and I still meet my cull targets.

What happens if you miss your cull target?

 

[nun_hunter]

This theory isn't true in my opinion. I've been involved with deer management for a while and I run both examples. I stalk a lot on my own and I have helpers. When I'm on my own I keep highly efficient and average just over a hour per deer (I keep very detailed records). When I take people out high seats (on their own) and stalking my efficiency drops and what they shoot doesn't make up for my drop. I'm not moaning about it because I enjoy the fact I can share what I have and they can go out as much or little as they want and I enjoy their company and I still meet my cull targets.

I did say the majority of established stalkers.

There are plenty of posts on here from people looking to go out and assist or share ground and very few if any at all offers come back vs plenty more posts of stalkers saying they would never trust anyone to go out on "their" ground.

Syndicates are popular only because someone is running it and making money from it.

DMGs do work but are pretty rare in the grand scheme of things.

Deer stalking is generally viewed as something that you have to pay to do and while there were less deer about this made some sense but now deer are in abundance (more than rabbits near me) things may change.

 

[Pete6.5]

What happens if you miss your cull target?

I don't get paid as much

 

[Pete6.5]

What happens if you miss your cull target?

Plus it would be a awkward meeting with the manager that happens nearly every month in the season to see if I'm on target and also discuss any improvements from either side that can happen to help with efficiencies

 

[wytonpjs]

Interesting debate but one which misses the basics - there are those who stalk for pleasure or others who have to as a job. I started in the former but over time have moved more into the realms of the latter. I own a dS, a Z6i, a Thermion XM38, an Alpex 4K LRF and a Meopta as spare, fitted across 2 x .308s, a .243 and a .270 respectively. All are tools for specific jobs and as others state, where the pressure is on fallow especially, the latter 2 see the most action. On a summer’s day out stalking for pleasure, it’s the Z6i, but for fallow that need to be culled, it’s either the Thermion or Alpex depending upon whether it’s woodland or open field - simply, “horses for courses”.

 

[Pete6.5]

Back on subject if you could only have one a digital (c50) can do pretty much everything a glass scope can but a glass scope can't do what a digital can without a add on attachment on the back of it.

 

[1894]

I thought a C50 would be good Dec-Jan and give me more legal light.
Performance was impressive but the scope annoying. To get the best out of it as light drew in required fiddling, not a dial, a bloody menu.
I also realised I needed a thermal to keep up - don’t want to go down that rabbit hole.
Finally I’m happy to sit until my Zeiss HTs give up but pitch black recovery is for me only for red stags a few times a year.
I sold it and am happy shooting my cull without atm

 

[mealiejimmy]

I think your user name describes you attitude to digital scope technology perfectly

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Pellet Pinger]

How did everyone manage before digital arrived? They did so by accepting that nature should, and will, win the battle with the final minutes of legal light. Now people have got the facility to shoot way beyond legal light, it draws in too much ambiguity and plays on the human nature of temptation. It would be very interesting to see just how many are in breach of the law, whether it be by seconds, minutes or more...

So the human nature of temptation only applies to digital users? Would also be interesting to see how many folk using glass have shot a buck mistaking it for a doe and vice versa at last light not being able to confirm but took a punt anyway.
Likewise sending a round into the murk not being able to see clearly beyond the quarry.
One point thats been missed on this thread is the safety aspect of digital, its not just about being able to see your quarry clearly, it also cant be beaten for seeing way beyond the target when your mince pies can’t.