Dsc1 & 2

[willie_gunn]

Life experience is worth more than any qualifications imo
Thing is I contacted national trust about squirrel control , they came back saying I need dsc1 to shoot squirrels on national trust land , this is why I say more who subscribe the more we will need , not just shooting but in all walks of life

You have pretty much answered the question posed in your very first post.

The reality, sad or otherwise, is that whilst you may have a lifetime of experience, you have no way of proving your competence. Experience may be worth more in your own eyes, but proof of competence - as evidenced through qualifications - is of concern to an increasing number of people these days, including (and perhaps particularly) landowners.

Look at the situation you describe from the National Trust’s perspective.

They will probably have a strong focus on safety, particularly as their grounds are likely to be open to the general public. It may even be a stipulation on their insurance for pest control that anyone undertaking such activities be trained to a certain standard.

That leaves them faced with a dilemma - is it sufficient to have someone say that, in all their years of experience, they’ve never shot anyone, or would it be better to have documentary evidence of them having proved their competence when it comes to safety? Since DSC1 is a nationally recognised qualification, and includes a mandatory safety test, it is a "no brainer" for the National Trust to use it as measure of competence.

This does not mean that experience should be ignored, and indeed it is likely to be a major differentiator when faced with candidates of equal competence, but experience also needs to built on a foundation of good practice.

There are plenty of examples, both here on SD and elsewhere, of DSC1 attendees who claimed a lifetime of experience, and only went along to "get the bit of paper”, but then failed through a combination of bravado and incompetence. Don’t be the one who sits there telling everyone about how many deer they’ve shot over the years, only to come a cropper when it comes to the shooting test or deer identification!

In all likelihood you can still get through your stalking life without the need to sit a formal qualificiation. However you are likely to find that, if you do, you will miss out on an increasing number of opportunities. As the apocryphal quote puts it "opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."

There are 32,975 stalkers out there who have completed their DSC1. Doubtless some of those also thought it was nothing but a money making scheme. However they still did it, and I'd guess many found it both enjoyable and educational. Others will have done it at no cost - indeed every year the owners of this site generously pay for 5 new stalkers to attend their DSC1 with BDS. You have just missed this year's course, but why not see if you can sign up for the course next year?

FREE DSC LEVEL 1 COURSE FOR SITE MEMBERS 2024

Its that time of year when, thanks to the Supporters of this site, we offer 5 places to young or upcoming deer stalkers the chance to take their DSC Level 1 course with the BDS. This year its at Boughton Estate again, near Kettering, Northants. The dates are 31st May to 2nd June 2024 inclusive...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

That way you will not only have the qualification, but will have met a bunch of other deer-minded folk and perhaps picked up a nugget of information or two that may open the door to more opportunity?

 

[Border]

I took my DSC1 through the BDS in 2019. I live in Norway and hunt in the UK as often as I can. I took the mandatory Norwegian hunters licence as a teen 30 + years ago. In order to shoot big game we must take a yearly hunting test (30 training shots and then 5 in a designated area from 100m in either prone, sitting, kneeling or standing. No bipods or sticks allowed.
I didn't need to take the DSC1 but thought it would be a great opportunity to learn more and meet some like minded people.
The course content and delivery was excellent and I learnt alot. There was a wide range of people on the course, from total novices to deer managers and keen stalkers. Nationality wise there was another Norwegian and a couple of Germans as well.
Not everyone passed, IMO a good thing otherwise it is too easy. Most failed on the shooting part of the test I believe. I think that the DMQ qualifications are a good thing.

 

[Overlay]

I took my DSC1 through the BDS in 2019. I live in Norway and hunt in the UK as often as I can. I took the mandatory Norwegian hunters licence as a teen 30 + years ago. In order to shoot big game we must take a yearly hunting test (30 training shots and then 5 in a designated area from 100m in either prone, sitting, kneeling or standing. No bipods or sticks allowed.
I didn't need to take the DSC1 but thought it would be a great opportunity to learn more and meet some like minded people.
The course content and delivery was excellent and I learnt alot. There was a wide range of people on the course, from total novices to deer managers and keen stalkers. Nationality wise there was another Norwegian and a couple of Germans as well.
Not everyone passed, IMO a good thing otherwise it is too easy. Most failed on the shooting part of the test I believe. I think that the DMQ qualifications are a good thing.

Morning Border
Hope all is well

When I completed my DSC1, one thing I didn’t expect was to have an outside class on a complete full gralloch of a fallow deer.
Everyone shoots, everyone watches or spies deer for ID etc being part of a gralloch for experience and completed to show you the variants in producing a fit to use carcase in compliance

Having already mastered the gralloch prior to the L1 this was the cream on the cake for me an opportunity to measure up against my already skills and where I wanted to be on standards best half morning of the course,

Whole course as always a learning and enjoyable time and a solid foundation to build on

Having permanent hands on gralloching within the course would be a real asset to everyone,

Cheers

Phil

 

[Border]

Morning Border
Hope all is well

When I completed my DSC1, one thing I didn’t expect was to have an outside class on a complete full gralloch of a fallow deer.
Everyone shoots, everyone watches or spies deer for ID etc being part of a gralloch for experience and completed to show you the variants in producing a fit to use carcase in compliance

Having already mastered the gralloch prior to the L1 this was the cream on the cake for me an opportunity to measure up against my already skills and where I wanted to be on standards best half morning of the course,

Whole course as always a learning and enjoyable time and a solid foundation to build on

Having permanent hands on gralloching within the course would be a real asset to everyone,

Cheers

Phil

Currently sitting on a sun lounger in Mallorca Phil, so all good .
We had a roe doe gralloch and lymph node demonstration, as well as the drop tongue method. Very informative.

 

[Overlay]

Currently sitting on a sun lounger in Mallorca Phil, so all good .
We had a roe doe gralloch and lymph node demonstration, as well as the drop tongue method. Very informative.

Wow.
Nice result

Just on the last day or so in hospital here, got my leg sorted at last, release is imminent

Have a nice time time Buddy enjoy ,

Haha I’ve been laying about last couple weeks, I could do with a walking holiday in the sun, I’ll ask SWMBO

Cheers

Phil

 

[willie_gunn]

Morning Border
Hope all is well

When I completed my DSC1, one thing I didn’t expect was to have an outside class on a complete full gralloch of a fallow deer.
Everyone shoots, everyone watches or spies deer for ID etc being part of a gralloch for experience and completed to show you the variants in producing a fit to use carcase in compliance

Having already mastered the gralloch prior to the L1 this was the cream on the cake for me an opportunity to measure up against my already skills and where I wanted to be on standards best half morning of the course,

Whole course as always a learning and enjoyable time and a solid foundation to build on

Having permanent hands on gralloching within the course would be a real asset to everyone,

Cheers

Phil

Agreed.

When I originally did my DSC1 in Cirencester with BDS they included a full gralloch of a roe, I think as part of the second weekend (it was a two weekend course, back in those days).

Although I was familiar with this already, it was a great learning experience to see how others did it. IIRC Peter Green, the BDS vet, was there as well, and described notifiable diseases, etc. This would have been shortly before the foot & mouth outbreak, so was very timely.

 

[Overlay]

Agreed.

When I originally did my DSC1 in Cirencester with BDS they included a full gralloch of a roe, I think as part of the second weekend (it was a two weekend course, back in those days).

Although I was familiar with this already, it was a great learning experience to see how others did it. IIRC Peter Green, the BDS vet, was there as well, and described notifiable diseases, etc. This would have been shortly before the foot & mouth outbreak, so was very timely.

When you look at all the different parts of the course which all deserve merit, gralloching draws the most “awesome” or gulp I’m gonna mess this up “ I’m not sure how to do “comments. it. To be honest
My thoughts would be to have a whole day on extraction from the shot all the way through to skin off and paperwork and an opportunity to gain more or further experience

 

[GlennUK]

Why would you subscribe to a money making scheme?

Education generally is a wonderful thing, not all of us have been brought up with a deer stalking expert for a father, uncle, mentor and so the DSC1 helps to give us a start in the education process when it comes to shooting/stalking.

Neither do we all have acres of land to shoot over, (I personally have 8 which which as just been cleared for 6.5cm from a high seat off the back of my DSC1 cert in part), and the owner of the shooting rights on my perm will be re-assured that i have the right insurance, a BASC member and have completed the DSC1.

If i want to look at further permissions of shoot elsewhere, these are all good reasons for a 3rd party to give me the chance.

I may of course still be a complete dick, but at least i have taken the time to try to learn about the sport and can demonstrate it, si i wll be a partially educated dick.

JMHO.

 

[GlennUK]

Life experience is worth more than any qualifications imo
Thing is I contacted national trust about squirrel control , they came back saying I need dsc1 to shoot squirrels on national trust land , this is why I say more who subscribe the more we will need , not just shooting but in all walks of life

Seem the NT dont necessarily share your views, and FWIW the DSC! includes a significant element on safe shooting generally so there is a read across, whatever your shooting, and whatever your shooting with.

 

[villaman]

You have pretty much answered the question posed in your very first post.

The reality, sad or otherwise, is that whilst you may have a lifetime of experience, you have no way of proving your competence. Experience may be worth more in your own eyes, but proof of competence - as evidenced through qualifications - is of concern to an increasing number of people these days, including (and perhaps particularly) landowners.

Look at the situation you describe from the National Trust’s perspective.

They will probably have a strong focus on safety, particularly as their grounds are likely to be open to the general public. It may even be a stipulation on their insurance for pest control that anyone undertaking such activities be trained to a certain standard.

That leaves them faced with a dilemma - is it sufficient to have someone say that, in all their years of experience, they’ve never shot anyone, or would it be better to have documentary evidence of them having proved their competence when it comes to safety? Since DSC1 is a nationally recognised qualification, and includes a mandatory safety test, it is a "no brainer" for the National Trust to use it as measure of competence.

This does not mean that experience should be ignored, and indeed it is likely to be a major differentiator when faced with candidates of equal competence, but experience also needs to built on a foundation of good practice.

There are plenty of examples, both here on SD and elsewhere, of DSC1 attendees who claimed a lifetime of experience, and only went along to "get the bit of paper”, but then failed through a combination of bravado and incompetence. Don’t be the one who sits there telling everyone about how many deer they’ve shot over the years, only to come a cropper when it comes to the shooting test or deer identification!

In all likelihood you can still get through your stalking life without the need to sit a formal qualificiation. However you are likely to find that, if you do, you will miss out on an increasing number of opportunities. As the apocryphal quote puts it "opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."

There are 32,975 stalkers out there who have completed their DSC1. Doubtless some of those also thought it was nothing but a money making scheme. However they still did it, and I'd guess many found it both enjoyable and educational. Others will have done it at no cost - indeed every year the owners of this site generously pay for 5 new stalkers to attend their DSC1 with BDS. You have just missed this year's course, but why not see if you can sign up for the course next year?

FREE DSC LEVEL 1 COURSE FOR SITE MEMBERS 2024

Its that time of year when, thanks to the Supporters of this site, we offer 5 places to young or upcoming deer stalkers the chance to take their DSC Level 1 course with the BDS. This year its at Boughton Estate again, near Kettering, Northants. The dates are 31st May to 2nd June 2024 inclusive...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

That way you will not only have the qualification, but will have met a bunch of other deer-minded folk and perhaps picked up a nugget of information or two that may open the door to more opportunity?

Thanks for a great reply

You have pretty much answered the question posed in your very first post.

The reality, sad or otherwise, is that whilst you may have a lifetime of experience, you have no way of proving your competence. Experience may be worth more in your own eyes, but proof of competence - as evidenced through qualifications - is of concern to an increasing number of people these days, including (and perhaps particularly) landowners.

Look at the situation you describe from the National Trust’s perspective.

They will probably have a strong focus on safety, particularly as their grounds are likely to be open to the general public. It may even be a stipulation on their insurance for pest control that anyone undertaking such activities be trained to a certain standard.

That leaves them faced with a dilemma - is it sufficient to have someone say that, in all their years of experience, they’ve never shot anyone, or would it be better to have documentary evidence of them having proved their competence when it comes to safety? Since DSC1 is a nationally recognised qualification, and includes a mandatory safety test, it is a "no brainer" for the National Trust to use it as measure of competence.

This does not mean that experience should be ignored, and indeed it is likely to be a major differentiator when faced with candidates of equal competence, but experience also needs to built on a foundation of good practice.

There are plenty of examples, both here on SD and elsewhere, of DSC1 attendees who claimed a lifetime of experience, and only went along to "get the bit of paper”, but then failed through a combination of bravado and incompetence. Don’t be the one who sits there telling everyone about how many deer they’ve shot over the years, only to come a cropper when it comes to the shooting test or deer identification!

In all likelihood you can still get through your stalking life without the need to sit a formal qualificiation. However you are likely to find that, if you do, you will miss out on an increasing number of opportunities. As the apocryphal quote puts it "opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work."

There are 32,975 stalkers out there who have completed their DSC1. Doubtless some of those also thought it was nothing but a money making scheme. However they still did it, and I'd guess many found it both enjoyable and educational. Others will have done it at no cost - indeed every year the owners of this site generously pay for 5 new stalkers to attend their DSC1 with BDS. You have just missed this year's course, but why not see if you can sign up for the course next year?

FREE DSC LEVEL 1 COURSE FOR SITE MEMBERS 2024

Its that time of year when, thanks to the Supporters of this site, we offer 5 places to young or upcoming deer stalkers the chance to take their DSC Level 1 course with the BDS. This year its at Boughton Estate again, near Kettering, Northants. The dates are 31st May to 2nd June 2024 inclusive...

www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk

That way you will not only have the qualification, but will have met a bunch of other deer-minded folk and perhaps picked up a nugget of information or two that may open the door to more opportunity?

Thank You for a great reply
I have no experience in deer stalking/ shooting , but been shooting for the best part of 51 years , but recently have been asked about shooting deer . I’m up front saying I haven’t got a clue , ok I know most deer species but haven’t got a clue what you can shoot apart from muntjac & cwd when you can shoot doe & buck . I have been advised to go with a experienced deer stalker , he will tell you everything you need to know + he will have a lifetime of experience, unlike some of the class room lectures teaching DSC1/2
This is why I asked is it a money making scheme

 

[chriswjx]

When you look at all the different parts of the course which all deserve merit, gralloching draws the most “awesome” or gulp I’m gonna mess this up “ I’m not sure how to do “comments. it. To be honest
My thoughts would be to have a whole day on extraction from the shot all the way through to skin off and paperwork and an opportunity to gain more or further experience

Personally, think that's bringing the DSC1 away from what it's supposed to be as a (mostly) theoretical primer into deer stalking. Kind of like how you need to sit a theory test before you can get into a car... Where do you draw the line at what an introduction should cover?

I do wish that my course allowed us to watch/take part in a gralloch - but I imagine it can be quite hard to guarantee...

 

[villaman]

Seem the NT dont necessarily share your views, and FWIW the DSC! includes a significant element on safe shooting generally so there is a read across, whatever your shooting, and whatever your shooting with.

I’m asking is it a money making scheme not telling it is

 

[villaman]

Ok If I signed up for one of these courses
What do I need to know before hand
What is the pass rate
What happens if you fail

 

[spurs14]

I’m asking is it a money making scheme not telling it is

No because it’s not compulsory you have a choice to take it it not ,
It’s the same as saying that about driving tests ! If you want to go by bus or walk don’t take it
If you want to drive a car you pay to take a test and get a license , if you want to stalk and to shoot deer ( of squirrels) you pay to take a test and that is the requirement many landowners require !
Many places won’t ask for this , friends , etc but to stalk on land of someone you don’t know then it’s proof of training rather than you saying oh yes shot for years very experienced,
There is a cheaper option where you can go and just do the assessments, no course , which I believe people who stalk already have done

 

[spurs14]

Ok If I signed up for one of these courses
What do I need to know before hand
What is the pass rate
What happens if you fail

Study the manual , read through it a few times. Much easier to use the manual than a usb stick !
If you fail any part you can simply retake that part , five parts in total !
I did ask about the pass rate when I did mine but guy said we don’t really know as they are sent off to bd marked
I wasn’t that experienced with centre fire rifles so did a pre dec course , just really for the shooting assessment,

 

[villaman]

Study the manual , read through it a few times. Much easier to use the manual than a usb stick !
If you fail any part you can simply retake that part , five parts in total !
I did ask about the pass rate when I did mine but guy said we don’t really know as they are sent off to bd marked
I wasn’t that experienced with centre fire rifles so did a pre dec course , just really for the shooting assessment,

I’m more worried about the classroom and paper exam last time in a exam probably 46 years ago city & guilds

 

[chriswjx]

I’m more worried about the classroom and paper exam last time in a exam probably 48 years ago 46 years ago city & guilds

Exam is multiple choice.

dsctraining.org is a very good training tool - it basically has every multiple choice question in the DSC1 question bank, and has them organised into their relevant categories. It can also "build" a test (50 questions) and give you a score.

Classroom I guess is down to your trainer, but mine was very much more like a very well structured talk and taking in some of the experiences and personal anecdotes from the trainer's life.

Pass rate - that's down to your classmates bud, would highly recommend even just taking a 1 month sub for the training website after you've swatted up the manual etc, and just drill yourself with the questions. No one on my course (there were 15 of us) failed the tests (although 1 person was there as a resit from the BASC course...). 2 people got 100% in all the paper exams. Only 1 failed the shooting test (the same person in for the other resit as well) - interestingly, the only one student on the day to have actually shot deer before was the person who failed the shooting test (and it was their 4th time of trying to pass the shooting test as well...). Not even a case of poor zero/hold point on the silhouette, target look like they had been shooting with SSG out of a shotgun.

 

[Moray Outfitting]

I’m asking is it a money making scheme not telling it is

You are asking if it is a money making scheme? As many have said , it is something that many landlords need you to have to get on to shoot. It is all to do with ofsetting their insurance basically. They are asking for it , BUT they are not making money out of asking you to have it. They will not have a share in the training groups. There is a need for the training , that you cannot deny. Who is going to do the official training for nothing? I admit that it is a part of my self employment. I have been a full time stalker most of my working career. I have been employed on different estates over different areas. In my eyes I feel that I have the lifetime experience that you go on about. 72 now and still working. In the beginning BASC came and asked me to be an assessor. I love passing on my experience , so I said yes. But the thing you do not realise is that I then need to go and get qualifications. An NVQ assessors ticket. RCO ticket. Top First Aid ticket. Then all the admin that was needed to carry on. That lot does not come cheap. But I did it because I believed in the qualification. I did mine almost at the beginning , I have a guy who I am training up to take over (not giving in yet) , many of you would balk at what it is costing him. But again he believes in it. There is already another move to have everyone qualified. Especially in Scotland. Yes I understand that some of you have a lifetime of experience and have not had any problems. But what are you going to do if the do gooders get their way. I have always said to stalkers, it is coming , so why not get it done while it is your choice . I know it is daunting to think about going into the classroom again. But better in your time than under pressure from someone who says that they will take your rifles away if you do not have it. Just remember, most of us are here to help you get through it. Make the experience as stress free as possible. And when someone asks to have something explained, we have the personal experience to explain the reasons. Rant over. J

 

[willie_gunn]

Thank You for a great reply
I have no experience in deer stalking/ shooting , but been shooting for the best part of 51 years , but recently have been asked about shooting deer . I’m up front saying I haven’t got a clue , ok I know most deer species but haven’t got a clue what you can shoot apart from muntjac & cwd when you can shoot doe & buck . I have been advised to go with a experienced deer stalker , he will tell you everything you need to know + he will have a lifetime of experience, unlike some of the class room lectures teaching DSC1/2
This is why I asked is it a money making scheme

That's why it is also important to choose the provider of the DSC1 carefully.

I only have experience of going with BDS, but the original DSC1 I attended was taught by people who already had a lifetime of practical experience, and who continue to do practical deer management.

If I look at the most recent course in June that was offered for free to those lucky 5 members on this site, I would suggest it was exactly the same there.

Nick Rout, who is the BDS Head of Training, has years of experience, as did Glyn Ingram, who Nick took over from. Rhian Tyne, who is now the BDS Assistant Training Officer, may be young in years, but she has huge experience of managing deer - both park and wild - and will have shot more deer by now than I ever will over the course of my lifetime!

Again, this is not to downplay the benefit of going out with an experienced deer stalker, and I'd encourage you to do that as well if time and finances allow. It will be a different kind of experience, and much more focused on the practicalities of deer stalking. It is exactly how I started, and what you will learn cannot be replaced entirely by classroom sessions. Each has its place, but one is not necessarily a substitute for the other.

 

[GlennUK]

I’m more worried about the classroom and paper exam last time in a exam probably 46 years ago city & guilds

I know that feeling, the guy running the course iw as on, has a lot of experience and that came acrosss during the course. I cannot speak for other courses, but we were well preapred some used the manual laone (me) some used online courses, but all passed the written parts. I was 1st to shoot and take the safety 'stalk' so am not sure how many passed the course in total.