Metropolitan Police trial new style certificates

[NullMac]

Surely in 2024 the Home Office through the cops could:

Dispense with paper altogether. It’s 1950’s tech. Go with a modern chip and pin, photo hologramed card like the banks/DVLA (well, sans chip)….

Whilst this would all need some investment, I can’t help but think it would provide true savings in the medium / longer term. Just my 2p’s worth……

Just like that...

It's all very well saying it's easy, but there are how many forces in England doing their own thing?

IT systems in the public sector have a long long history of overspend and failure.

Since the advent of the cloud a number of departments have digitised very well and smoothly. DVLA being one of them. Centralised systems are the key. Whenever it gets distributed it seems to become a fandango.

Yes it should not be beyond the wit of man but the archaic structure of the Police in England and the independence they are afforded are legacy issues that will screw it up.

Shhh, don't mention public sector productivity to the Labour lot, the poor old employees may get mental health issues...

 

[NullMac]

Emigrate Emigrate.

Good god, no man we just left. Its a democracy here.

 

[LuckyEddie]

One thing to remember for going the whole hog and credit card style certs.

What happened barely 3 weeks ago?
Oh yes a software update caused mayhem - and that was unintentional!

How safe are the systems, both from intentional breaches or somebody just being an eejit and not doing something correctly?

 

[Jh1986]

Just like that...

It's all very well saying it's easy, but there are how many forces in England doing their own thing?

IT systems in the public sector have a long long history of overspend and failure.

Since the advent of the cloud a number of departments have digitised very well and smoothly. DVLA being one of them. Centralised systems are the key. Whenever it gets distributed it seems to become a fandango.

Yes it should not be beyond the wit of man but the archaic structure of the Police in England and the independence they are afforded are legacy issues that will screw it up.

Shhh, don't mention public sector productivity to the Labour lot, the poor old employees may get mental health issues...

That's the thing I can't stand though, this acceptance that this is just the way things are.

Government spend is broken. There's no long-term planning, only planning for "your term".

Sick of this status quo public services management where they basically make no changes but try not to F up enough to lose their position, whilst milking the wages whilst they have them.

I see it enough in the county education sector.

 

[ContinShots]

If we went to a chip & pin style certificate with associated card reader, how would 2 normal folk sell guns between themselves?

Surely it could be via temporary form to show the transaction has occurred, much like they do with V5 and motor sales?

 

[ContinShots]

One thing to remember for going the whole hog and credit card style certs.

What happened barely 3 weeks ago?
Oh yes a software update caused mayhem - and that was unintentional!

How safe are the systems, both from intentional breaches or somebody just being an eejit and not doing something correctly?

However, we use a completely different system in Scotland, called Shogun, and it works pretty much flawlessly. So it can be done.

 

[Greenmist]

If we went to a chip & pin style certificate with associated card reader, how would 2 normal folk sell guns between themselves?

Via an app, if you can send money to anyone in the world via a banking app, why not similar for firearms transfer. A banking app would be the perfect platform for the system

 

[Tazz]

Why piddle about with half measures (literally in this case), go the whole hog and introduce a paper free system.

Good point, I believe there are things called computers out there now they may be able to help

 

[ContinShots]

Via an app, if you can send money to anyone in the world via a banking app, why not similar for firearms transfer. A banking app would be the perfect platform for the system

The more to shift things into public racing digital systems, the greater the risk of hacks and detials of firearms owners, their address, what they hold etc being leaked. It's far from a small risk and the fact every year public sector bodies, from the NHS to government agencies, get hacked and have data leaked on the dark web should be a red flag for anyone. I would far prefer a little inconvenience than a Guntrader-style data breach, but from the entire public facing English and Welsh licensing database.

 

[Jh1986]

The more to shift things into public racing digital systems, the greater the risk of hacks and detials of firearms owners, their address, what they hold etc being leaked. It's far from a small risk and the fact every year public sector bodies, from the NHS to government agencies, get hacked and have data leaked on the dark web should be a red flag for anyone. I would far prefer a little inconvenience than a Guntrader-style data breach, but from the entire public facing English and Welsh licensing database.

Our certificates are just paper representations of what is already stored digitally.

 

[fixedwheel]

The more to shift things into public racing digital systems, the greater the risk of hacks and detials of firearms owners, their address, what they hold etc being leaked. It's far from a small risk and the fact every year public sector bodies, from the NHS to government agencies, get hacked and have data leaked on the dark web should be a red flag for anyone. I would far prefer a little inconvenience than a Guntrader-style data breach, but from the entire public facing English and Welsh licensing database.

This.

And howsabout if minor edits were done during a hack, and the perpetrator was happy to sit back and wait for the impact? Only needs a few digits in the serial numbers to be altered, and not picked up until the next renewal or FEO visit, potentially years into the future. Its would then mean the whole database would be compromised, and trying to sanitise it then would be a monumental task.

At least with an issued Certificate, you can prove what the info was at time that certificate was issued. When a new certificate was issued to me after a variation, I found an error. If I hadn't checked it carefully I potentially wouldn't have found it. If it was all online, without being able to review it, you could have an interesting conversation.

A credit card style FAC, and potentially a paper counterpart, like the DVLA did when photo card licences came in, poss best of both worlds. In time we can hopefully get instant release of slots when a disposal is registered. Or even one-for-one is done within a group of like calibres, and a FEO only has to deal with major changes. Reduce their workloads too, and reduce the costs of admin.

 

[ContinShots]

Our certificates are just paper representations of what is already stored digitally.

Yes, I know that. The point I made, and I've made it twice now in this thread, is that as soon as you open up that database to public access (eg. you allow RFDs and others to access it in order to record sales or transfers), you substantially increase the risk of it getting hacked. Currently, it is essentially firewalled behind the police secure network and is only accessible by them. Introducing APIs and other routes for remote access by third parties would remove a critical part of the security that keeps that data safe.

 

[ContinShots]

This.

And howsabout if minor edits were done during a hack, and the perpetrator was happy to sit back and wait for the impact? Only needs a few digits in the serial numbers to be altered, and not picked up until the next renewal or FEO visit, potentially years into the future. Its would then mean the whole database would be compromised, and trying to sanitise it then would be a monumental task.

At least with an issued Certificate, you can prove what the info was at time that certificate was issued. When a new certificate was issued to me after a variation, I found an error. If I hadn't checked it carefully I potentially wouldn't have found it. If it was all online, without being able to review it, you could have an interesting conversation.

A credit card style FAC, and potentially a paper counterpart, like the DVLA did when photo card licences came in, poss best of both worlds. In time we can hopefully get instant release of slots when a disposal is registered. Or even one-for-one is done within a group of like calibres, and a FEO only has to deal with major changes. Reduce their workloads too, and reduce the costs of admin.

I agree entirely. I think a credit card licence to show have FAC, SGC, AWC, Explosives Licence etc (all on one card), you are who you say you are and what ammo you can hold, with a paper component listing what firearms you hold, would be a decent compromise. It would also get rid of the unnecessary practice of recording ammo sales and you could just use your photocard to do that. It would be much better than the current and dreadfully out of date certificate. It would also cut down on waste, because you'd only need one or two pages reprinted with variations etc, rather than the entire certificate. If it weren't for the ridiculous system we have in Great Britain, where certificates have to be exactly as prescribed by ststite law, the authorities could easily keep up with technology, save time, resource and money. But we're still working not just with law from the 60s, but an approach to drafting and framing new firearms legislation that is also stuck back then.

 

[Greenmist]

The more to shift things into public racing digital systems, the greater the risk of hacks and detials of firearms owners, their address, what they hold etc being leaked. It's far from a small risk and the fact every year public sector bodies, from the NHS to government agencies, get hacked and have data leaked on the dark web should be a red flag for anyone. I would far prefer a little inconvenience than a Guntrader-style data breach, but from the entire public facing English and Welsh licensing database.

Perhaps explain that to my father, who's shotgun certificate was delivered to a different address, all your details are already held on a police computer

 

[ContinShots]

Perhaps explain that to my father, who's shotgun certificate was delivered to a different address, all your details are already held on a police computer

I'm struggling to see what your point is, I'm afraid. A clerical error resulting in a certificate being sent to the wrong address - while concerning - isn't remotely the same as the entire database being accessible by third parties and the heightened risk that would being.

 

[Greenmist]

I'm struggling to see what your point is, I'm afraid. A clerical error resulting in a certificate being sent to the wrong address - while concerning - isn't remotely the same as the entire database being accessible by third parties and the heightened risk that would being.

We're already on the police data base, should anyone wish to hack it, breaches in security were happening before the computer age

 

[fixedwheel]

Perhaps explain that to my father, who's shotgun certificate was delivered to a different address, all your details are already held on a police computer

Was the certificate wrongly addressed? Or did the Royal Mail deliver it to the wrong address?

 

[Greenmist]

Was the certificate wrongly addressed? Or did the Royal Mail deliver it to the wrong address?

Dads name, completely wrong address, details of all guns owned, in the sort of town where if you didn't know someone, it wasn't hard to find out. It only came out when he thought it was taking too long so rang them and they realised the mistake

 

[25 Sharps]

It is astonishing how stupid people can be. A given quantity of type and formatting will occupy the same amount of paper (or more allowing for margin), no matter what size the sheets of paper are. If they want to save paper, they could just issue a "credit" card one only at initial grant and there is no need for anything else because of the computer system. RFD's could have live access to view authorisations and update purchases and transfers. The waste is not of paper, but in having a shambolic and shoddy system.

So what happens when I sell my buddy 100x 6.5 x55 then? Or a private sale of a rifle?

No way or recording on the buyer’s cert.

 

[Apthorpe]

So what happens when I sell my buddy 100x 6.5 x55 then? Or a private sale of a rifle?

In the former case, I believe there is no keed to record the sale and in the latter you notify the police in precisely the same way as you are currently required to.

No way or recording on the buyer’s cert.

It would be recorded digitally, in exactly the same way as all your other sensitive data is.