timbrayford
Well-Known Member
And FAC/SGC administration at a fair price!
Metropolitan Police trial new style certificates
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
ContinShots
Well-Known Member
A sensible suggestion. We also have the laughable issue where 1/4 of the Firearms held outrage is taken up by the unnecessarily wordy title for the reference number column. But the issue we have is that the entire Act is ridiculously framed and the wording and layout of the certificate is defined by legislation, so legislation is required to amend it. What a crazy, dated and wholly inefficient way to run things!
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Absolutely correct, we are lumbered with early 20th century legislation, the world of banking and driving licences has moved on, but the firearms act has not.
K
This ^
Sadly you need not be paranoid to realise the Home Office aren't in the business of making life easy for FAC holders or indeed RFD's.
K
ContinShots
Well-Known Member
Having worked in government bureaucracy myself before retiring (for my sins), while I have no doubts that there is an element of dislike for and contempt held for those who possess firearms, it's important also to not discount general incompetence.
One of the great flaws of the Civil Service, which the Civil Service trumpets as a strength, is the extent to which staff are fairly regularly shifted around departments, often without knowing the first thing about the topic they've landed in. That is why you have heads of department turning up at Select Committees, not having a clue what they're talking about, being briefed by junior staff who also appear lacking, who then go back to their offices write or rewrite, or sign off, weak, ineffective or flawed legislation or policy.
I've seen it first hand. I've seen suggestions or even considered drafts put forward by experienced professionals, dismissed or altered by those with considerably less experience, and a right mess made of it as a result. I'm not sure how the Home Office is structured as it wasn't that body I worked for, but it wouldn't surprise me if plain ignorance, a lack of experience and/or a lack of firsthand knowledge of the legislation in operation is also responsible for some of the ineffective, atriciously worded, lacking in any commonsense whatsoever processes and procedures we all have to deal with.
ContinShots
Well-Known Member
"Technical issues" meaning they needed to buy a new printer? I printed A4 at two pages per side almost every day of the year at work. It literally takes one extra click of a mouse!
I wonder whether the A5 one was just too small a font size, meaning it was harder for some with sight issue to read and also a nightmare for adding in lots of ammunition of those with lots of slots?
Ultimately, it should be a photo card and paper component, like the original driving licence photocard/paper licence. That would drag it into the 2000s, at least.
Koenig
Well-Known Member
Whilst I genuinely applaud efforts to make things easier / more streamlined et al…..I don’t really think this qualifies as ‘letting technology take the strain’ or indeed a 21st century solution. Surely in 2024 the Home Office through the cops could:
Dispense with paper altogether. It’s 1950’s tech. Go with a modern chip and pin, photo hologramed card like the banks/DVLA (well, sans chip)….
Use established barcode IT to log purchases.This could be done on an App or bespoke IT system for shops. Bushwear staff told me during last years visit that Police Scotland could see what powder I was buying via barcode - so seemingly it can be done.
Ten year renewals could work, but carry a risk in that a lot can change over that time period in terms of health / domestic arrangements etc. that said, anything serious would (should) flag up routinely. Perhaps combine this with a mid-point review?
Variations for similar swaps should be sped up, substituting say a .22-250 for a .223 used for the same purpose shouldn’t be something that takes weeks. More complex changes could then be focused on.
The South African PH’s I was with last year had a credit card sized FAC and said the system worked. Supermarkets can can tell using AI my shopping habits using a cheap barcoded plastic card, so again all this can be done.
Whilst this would all need some investment, I can’t help but think it would provide true savings in the medium / longer term. Just my 2p’s worth……
Dispense with paper altogether. It’s 1950’s tech. Go with a modern chip and pin, photo hologramed card like the banks/DVLA (well, sans chip)….
Use established barcode IT to log purchases.This could be done on an App or bespoke IT system for shops. Bushwear staff told me during last years visit that Police Scotland could see what powder I was buying via barcode - so seemingly it can be done.
Ten year renewals could work, but carry a risk in that a lot can change over that time period in terms of health / domestic arrangements etc. that said, anything serious would (should) flag up routinely. Perhaps combine this with a mid-point review?
Variations for similar swaps should be sped up, substituting say a .22-250 for a .223 used for the same purpose shouldn’t be something that takes weeks. More complex changes could then be focused on.
The South African PH’s I was with last year had a credit card sized FAC and said the system worked. Supermarkets can can tell using AI my shopping habits using a cheap barcoded plastic card, so again all this can be done.
Whilst this would all need some investment, I can’t help but think it would provide true savings in the medium / longer term. Just my 2p’s worth……
ContinShots
Well-Known Member
I pretty much agree regarding 'licence cards', so long as the security is tight enough that there's no danger of a Guntrader-esque data leak. Leaving out chips will, of course, help to reduce one potential avenue for data leaking, but it doesn't stop it all. The more remote access RFDs have to the main data base, the higher the potential for things going wrong. I'm sure it's doable, it just has to be done properly and robustly.
With regard to 10-year certificates, I think it's entirely doable and should be done. Yes, a lot can change health-wise, but that precisely why GP markers are required. Anything material that a GP knows or finds out about is going to be passed to the police via the marker system. It's no different to what police get via the GP form during renewal. So long as a marker system is mandatory and perhaps even legislate so it can't be negotiated out of a contract by the RCGP or BMA at a later point, I think that would be suitably robust.
As for other firearms enquiry considerations, it is a legal requirement for holders to notify the police of any material change already. People run the risk not just of revocation but charged with an offence of they fail to mention something material to the process, as it already stands. But perhaps there could be a point at, say, 5 years in where an FEO contacts the original referees and asks if they know of any changes or happenings. If not, then that's the end of it until the 10 years are up. If so, then a deeper enquiry can take place with the option of revocation or suspension, but all while the certificate is live, rather than under the pressure of a five year lifespan about to end?
Surely there is a way to retain robustness and confidence in the process, while making it less of a quagmire and more cost effective, and providing greater certainty and stability to certificate holder?
We no longer get paper permits.
I have a credit card sized hunting licence and I apply for, pay for and receive my permits online.
I can print a copy myself but it isn't really necessary as I can just show it on my phone when I buy ammunition. It took a while to get there though as the new computer system couldn't do what it was supposed to. (As usual with government IT projects).
Part of the process is giving the police permission to look at my medical records, so no doctors report to wait for. It still takes a few weeks as someone has to physically look at my info, but all in all the system works.
That said I still have my old UK licence in a wallet as it is much nicer looking than a plain piece of A4.
I have a credit card sized hunting licence and I apply for, pay for and receive my permits online.
I can print a copy myself but it isn't really necessary as I can just show it on my phone when I buy ammunition. It took a while to get there though as the new computer system couldn't do what it was supposed to. (As usual with government IT projects).
Part of the process is giving the police permission to look at my medical records, so no doctors report to wait for. It still takes a few weeks as someone has to physically look at my info, but all in all the system works.
That said I still have my old UK licence in a wallet as it is much nicer looking than a plain piece of A4.
nun_hunter
Well-Known Member
Hanlon's Razor states you should never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
Online portal, same way you log into online banking. Could even go for those card reader things
Go to RFD pay small fee for using the machine, possible RFD benefits by you purchasing other items or as above.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Here is the German FAC (WBK) for comparison it is A5 sized. It is a permanent document showing all firearms you hold they just issue an extra one when it is filled up with no more renewals of it needed as long as your Jagdschein (of the same size) is renewed either every year or three years (your choice).
BTW we do not have to note our ammo purchases for rifle ammo of any calibre as you may need something that is not on your cert due to having a different calibre loaner rifle in your short term possession. Makes life easier for me. Emigrate Emigrate.
BTW we do not have to note our ammo purchases for rifle ammo of any calibre as you may need something that is not on your cert due to having a different calibre loaner rifle in your short term possession. Makes life easier for me. Emigrate Emigrate.
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Koenig
Well-Known Member
Possibly by an App. If I can scan a cheque into an App and move funds as a result to the satisfaction of the banks (remember they are governed by ‘know your customer’ protocols) why could it not be done using AI and a scan of the serial number? Thats got to be better than email. Wilts police use an online process already and from direct experience it worked really well - for me anyway.
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