40-60 Brass

[mazperks]

Hi I've recently acquired a 40-60 lever rifle, and being obsolete cal, I am looking for some inert rounds just for cycling in the action.
So if anyone has any cases no longer suitable for reloading to sell, they would be ideal for display purposes,
obviously I would need some bullets as well but the brass is the main requirement.
Thanks if anyone can help with this.
Regards Ian.

 

[Sinistral]

Winchester stopped making ammunition for the .40-60 in 1934, so this cartridge really is ultra-rare.

If I had a functioning rifle to shoot, I'd try making cases for it from cut-down .45-70 with a set of .38-56 Win dies.
The FLR die should squeeze down the straight-taper walls of the .45-70 to form a .447" diameter shoulder (P2 at L2) with a .403" diameter neck section. Expanding the neck of the reform up from .375" to take .406" bullets should then give an outside neck diameter of .430"(H2) at around 1.445" (L2).
The slightly thicker .45/70 rim shouldn't matter.

LEE discontinued dies for the .38-56 a few years ago.
The unusual bullet diameter is also a problem, as from memory only the .450/400 or .400 Jeffery uses this calibre.

C.I.P. DIMENSIONS	L1	L2	L3	R1Ø	P1Ø	P2Ø	H2Ø	G1Ø	SA°
.45/70 GOVT (Rt=.070")	-	-	2.105	.608	.506	-	.480	.458	n/a
.38-56 Win	1.227	1.472	2.105	.606	.506	.447	.403	.375	n/c
.40-60 Win (Rt=.064")	1.223	1.445	1.870	.630	.506	.445	.430	.406	2

Acccording to your post you only want a handful. Kranks appear to have just 7 of these cases left in stock.
If you can get hold of these then I can fit half up with Kynoch 480gr SP, and the rest with Eley FMJ solids.
Cast will not withstand frequent cycling, so best to use jacketed I think.
.40-60 Bertram Case

 

[sassman186]

I shoot a 40-65, with 300gr lead bullets, made from 45-70,
if I get time next week i will have ago at trimming some to 40-60 for you,

 

[webley701]

………to take .406" bullets should then give an outside neck diameter of .430"(H2) at around 1.445" (L2).

The unusual bullet diameter is also a problem, as from memory only the .450/400 or .400 Jeffery uses this calibre.

The .450/400 3-1/4 & .450/400 Jeffery use .409” - .410” bullets not .406”

 

[Sinistral]

I shoot a 40-65, with 300gr lead bullets, made from 45-70,
if I get time next week i will have ago at trimming some to 40-60 for you,

Won't work Sass, the .40-65 case is too fat to chamber.

C.I.P. DIMENSIONS	L1	L2	L3	R1Ø	P1Ø	P2Ø	H2Ø	G1Ø	SA°
.40-60 Win (Rt=.064")	1.223	1.445	1.870	.630	.506	.445	.430	.406	2
.40-65 Win (Rt=.070")	1.223	1.445	2.100	.608	.504	.476	.426	.406	2

 

[Sinistral]

The .450/400 3-1/4 & .450/400 Jeffery use .409” - .410” bullets not .406”

Mine are .406" - 407" so they'll do the job.

 

[Smellydog]

For dummies turn some in a lathe.

 

[scotch_egg]

Now I don’t know my straight wall cases and there being quite a lot of different but similar options out there. But is this what you need?

40-65 WCF / 40-60 Marlin - Rifle Brass - Metallic Reloading - Graf & Sons

www.grafs.com

 

[mazperks]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions everyone.
I am not a re loader and wouldnt want to start buying kit for just a few rounds of display ammo.
I have a few obsolete rifles including a martini henry, and remington rolling block but I particularly want to see the Whitney load and cycle.
Scotch Egg, the 40-60 Marlin is a straight wall cartridge whereas the 40-60 Win is necked, I dont know if that would make any difference.
Off the shelf brass is very difficult to obtain, so Thanks again for the offers of help in reforming some cases.
Cheers Sassman & Sinstral.
Regards Ian.
PS I didnt mention that the rifle in question is a Whitney Kennedy 40-60 win. Rare even in the USA, only 23,000 made before Winchester bought them out and closed the factory around 1886. Apparently they didnt like the fact it was a better designed and built rifle.

 

[sassman186]

is the Martini 577-450 and what cal is the Rolling-block, ?

 

[mazperks]

The Martini is 577, and the Rem is a swedish contract 12.17 mm. (i'm assuming that as I can get a 12mm drill into the bore)

 

[Sinistral]

Scotch Egg, the 40-60 Marlin is a straight wall cartridge whereas the 40-60 Win is necked, I dont know if that would make any difference.

There is a lot of confusion over BP and transition cartridges among collectors (PDF).
I think you need the straight-taper 53-54mm case (2) shown on the links below, not the 48mm version (1). The different rifle makers were in competion with each other, and stuck their name on the same or similar cartridges. The way forward is to reform full-length .45-70 cases, but there don't seem to be any exact measurements for yours anywhere.
LEE listed a .40-60 2 die-set, but this has disappeared from their new website.

The only CIP specifications (in post #2) appear to be for the shorter bottle-necked .40-60 from Bertram Brass.
This is the one shown in Barnes C.O.T.W, and may be the one that Kranks stock.

Tel: 0113 256 9163 Email: sales@henrykrank.com Web: www.henrykrank.com

Length is 47.5mm and currently 7 available from stock
Best Regards
Derek

40 - 60 Winchester Unprimed Brass Cases

40 - 60 Winchester Unprimed Brass Cases One of the great range of Standard, Obsolete, and Wildcat Ammunition Cases, Dies, Reloading Equipment and Accessories available from Northern Shooters Supplies and growing.

www.northernshooterssupplies.com.au

Forum -

winchestercollector.org

 

[MarinePMI]

Perhaps someone has a copy of:

https://www.amazon.com/Handloaders-Manual-Cartridge-Conversions/dp/1616082380

I'd look it up in mine, but am at work at the moment.

Anyone that collects guns or ammo for obsolete cartridges should, IMHO, own this manual.

 

[mazperks]

I've just been looking on Wikipedia out of interest it gives all the dimensions of the 40-60.

 

[MarinePMI]

I've just been looking on Wikipedia out of interest it gives all the dimensions of the 40-60.

Understood. But that manual tells you different options to form an obsolete case from either current cases, or a current case with a particular length and thickness of brass tubing to sleeve the current case with. It's a book worthy to have on the shelf, if for no other reason than to be able to see all the dimensions of most of the obscure and/or obsolete cases (to include many of the rook rifle cases you guys have over there).

Like I said, if you enjoy obsolete rifles/cases, it's an interesting book to have on hand to flip through and ponder.

 

[Sinistral]

Perhaps someone has a copy of:

https://www.amazon.com/Handloaders-Manual-Cartridge-Conversions/dp/1616082380

I'd look it up in mine, but am at work at the moment.

Anyone that collects guns or ammo for obsolete cartridges should, IMHO, own this manual.

I've just been looking on Wikipedia out of interest it gives all the dimensions of the 40-60.

Yes, got the book - "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions - JJ.Donnelly & J.Donnelly - 4th Edition (2011)". This has nominal measurements which sometimes have errors. The straight-taper 2.11" case @ page 300 is named .40-60 Marlin, the slightly bottle-necked 1.87" @ page 301 is called .40-60 Win.
The PDF (current read-count only 4?) says the Kennedy rifle was chambered for the Marlin cartridge, not the Winchester on WIKI.

 

[mazperks]

The marlin 40-60 is the equivalent to the 40-65 win. and would not fit.