Is it time for a change to the seasons?

[Tim.243]

Out again yesterday late afternoon on a first full season on a new to me farm with Fallow moving and feeding through this small farm.
I contacted next doors farm manager asking if one makes it over the boundary as they cross from a small field over on to the farm I shoot,
He said that was fine as they have had to do the same a couple of times over the years. (just text me)
He also explained they head to a large wood where his stalker picks them off also there are far too many for his liking, the subject got on to seasons!! (hence the post)
What I saw yesterday was a group come out of what I have nicknamed "the jungle" on a second farm boundary, that group turn out to be 25 by the time they all filed out.

All feeding/grazing on a volunteer patch which will be a crop when it is drilled, 3/4 lead does the rest milling around (as they do)
There will have been young bucks but nothing to give a clear indication, then they move on as they do.
later on from the boundary corner a lead doe and 6 youngster's filled along my side all stopping to graze but with only 5mins of last legal light and no time to cover the distance for any ID.
Both sexes are/will be eating the same amount of food.
No hard winters.
Lots of good food
Nothing feeding from the mothers
Move through the land at least once/twice a day.

It is a small farm with no holding woods and little cover so all but one so far has been beyond the range of my day scope so the last 30 mins of legal light works well.
I say the season dates are "out of date" for this and many blocks of land where the deer pass through, crops are much better tended to producing better yields but in-turn require more costs.
From a point of reducing numbers (not promoting HEADS or using out of season licence's)
By moving it fwd will offer a better chance to reduce number before they wise up as in less than 8 weeks then both can and will be shot.

Lots of other changes in shooting but the deer act has not moved to keep up with the change in different crops now grown, 2 years of covid numbers which has expanded the population to the numbers never seen before.

 

[Pete6.5]

The fallow fawns are still feeding from the does. If the seasons are to change it would make much more sense to add a month at the end of the season. You make a good point about sexing fawns it's possible to do so but it's very rare to see buck fawns at the game dealers even though it would be perfectly legal. If they were really serious and I mean serious about reducing numbers making it legal to shoot all fawns from August onwards would be devastating to the numbers.
I always hear it's shooting the mature does which is the key to reducing numbers I would call bull on that and would argue how many fawns has a 5 year old doe got in her compared to a doe fawn.

 

[VSS]

The end of the fallow doe season certainly ought to be extended to bring it up to the same date as the end of the male season (end of April).
Not so sure I'd want to bring the opening date for females forward though. It would be ok if you shot a fawn in August and were then immediately able to nail the mother, but shooting does and leaving fawns would be a pretty harsh thing to do. They're still dependent at this stage.

 

[gelert]

Maybe one answer is to get all the big male deer in England and Wales under one season like roe bucks.
You would then only concentrate on the females during winter, resulting in theory more females being shot and not be tempted to shoot any males in a group or any hangers on.
Game dealers wouldn't be under so much pressure during peaks times of the year, neither would stalkers once August 1st comes around.
People who want to shoot a decent head still can, just like the roe season. The bucks would also get some sort of rest after the rut and leave the winter to concentrate on the females.
But more importantly you would have something to shoot 12 months of the year.

 

[Tim.243]

The fallow fawns are still feeding from the does. If the seasons are to change it would make much more sense to add a month at the end of the season. You make a good point about sexing fawns it's possible to do so but it's very rare to see buck fawns at the game dealers even though it would be perfectly legal. If they were really serious and I mean serious about reducing numbers making it legal to shoot all fawns from August onwards would be devastating to the numbers.
I always hear it's shooting the mature does which is the key to reducing numbers I would call bull on that and would argue how many fawns has a 5 year old doe got in her compared to a doe fawn.

I think go the other way as they are part of the land, farmers work the land when it is right and good conditions, at the moment the land is dry and conditions are good, also they soon wise up. Come Nov the conditions change and the deer are a lot smarter also at the moment the land is being prepped come Nov the winter wheat/barley/rape will have been drilled at a great cost with deer feeding on it with most farming over till the spring.

Farms harvest when thing are ready and with the weather, leave it to late and you can't get on the ground and will have a poor return,
Same with stalking.

The 5 does would not be feeding 20 calf's as the others have joined the group (as they do) she would be feeding her own.
The 6 calf's with the one Doe were following one or 2 of hers.

My comments are from what I see so if the seasons are working why do we have so many deer?

 

[Tim.243]

The end of the fallow doe season certainly ought to be extended to bring it up to the same date as the end of the male season (end of April).
Not so sure I'd want to bring the opening date for females forward though. It would be ok if you shot a fawn in August and were then immediately able to nail the mother, but shooting does and leaving fawns would be a pretty harsh thing to do. They're still dependent at this stage.

At the end of seasons like all the smart foxes Does Big stags Big Bucks have wised up and go nocturnal due to the pressure of shooting so make a good start in Sept then you are not chasing deer in short legal hours of shooting.
The old saying we all have heard is " There are only so many hours in the day"
Generally the winter months are pants for weather/extraction and short hours, being ahead is better than being behind.

 

[VSS]

At the end of seasons like all the smart foxes Does Big stags Big Bucks have wised up and go nocturnal due to the pressure of shooting so make a good start in Sept then you are not chasing deer in short legal hours of shooting.
The old saying we all have heard is " There are only so many hours in the day"
Generally the winter months are pants for weather/extraction and short hours, being ahead is better than being behind.

Where I stalk, I could shoot does quite easily in April. In fact, I think it would be a very productive month, if the female season were to be extended.
But I get that deer behaviour varies from region to region, and what I see wouldn't be replicated everywhere.

 

[Tim.243]

Where I stalk, I could shoot does quite easily in April. In fact, I think it would be a very productive month, if the female season were to be extended.
But I get that deer behaviour varies from region to region, and what I see wouldn't be replicated everywhere.

Deer react to pressure so chasing cull numbers late in the season when it could be done over longer period is less pressure for both deer and shooter. Lets face it come November then the deer you could have shot 6/7 weeks don't need to be dealt with and you have planed to shoot them anyway.
The out of season and night licences are in place for there reasons so the season back or fwd is void for those but still a lot of deer.

 

[VSS]

Deer react to pressure so chasing cull numbers late in the season when it could be done over longer period is less pressure for both deer and shooter. Lets face it come November then the deer you could have shot 6/7 weeks don't need to be dealt with and you have planed to shoot them anyway.
The out of season and night licences are in place for there reasons so the season back or fwd is void for those but still a lot of deer.

Sure, but when you're sat in a highseat, 5 minutes before last shooting time, on the last day of April, after a blank day, and a fallow doe steps out in front of you, what do you do? Tip your hat to her and go home? Not likely!

 

[Overlay]

How many times you hear for just falllow “ I don’t like shooting up to the amended season calendar times on fallow does because of the size of the embryos “ this a regular occurrence. Its not uncommon

we are now faced with a surge in fallow because of various factors, which has apparently lead to damage etc, numbers need reducing, looking through the season

You shouldn't shoot does and leave the youngster yep OK humane and logical

How about thoughts of having a season for less than a year old fallow bucks and does prior to one month before the doe season starts that would allow a good kick off to reducing numbers with the added bonus of no risk of having any orphaned fawns that seems reasonable, combine that with the season in full you could get quite a number of year olds already in the chiller, then there is a difference to be made on reducing numbers

 

[Tim.243]

Sure, but when you're sat in a highseat, 5 minutes before last shooting time, on the last day of April, after a blank day, and a fallow doe steps out in front of you, what do you do? Tip your hat to her and go home? Not likely!

Well you should have started earlier and not left it until the last day

 

[ion]

In Bavaria in September I was told I could shoot a roe doe provided I shot her kid first. I'd say it works best when there is only a single dependent kid.
I agree that we should be able to sex fawns and cull accordingly. They might not make the minimum weight for the game dealer, but when I give away a carcase the fawn / yearling is always popular.

 

[VSS]

How many times you hear for just falllow “ I don’t like shooting up to the amended season calendar times on fallow does because of the size of the embryos “ this a regular occurrence. Its not uncommon

It's also nonsense.
It's just a bleat put out there by Scottish stalkers who don't like the fact that their "traditional" dates have been amended, instead of celebrating the fact that a bit of regulation has actually been relaxed - an almost unprecedented situation in the UK!
Shooting a pregnant fallow doe in late April is neither here nor there, as far as the unborn foetus is concerned. It's not exactly going to jump out and shout BOO! in your face!
Best practice for muntjac states shoot does when heavily pregnant, and I don't hear any pansies making a fuss about that!

Perhaps English and Welsh stalkers are like roe deer: tougher than the ones in Scotland

 

[VSS]

Well you should have started earlier and not left it until the last day

Yes, but I like to get out stalking for a full day at the end of the season to celebrate the wife's birthday. I'm sure it thrills her when I come crawling in late at night, stinking and bloody, and say "Happy Birthday dear, I've brought you a liver".

 

[Foxyboy43]

Hmmm.
From what I read, in many parts of the UK deer numbers are reaching or have already reached pestilence numbers and heavy management is required. Sooo maybe it is time to think beyond the obvious horizons and take a fresh look at how deer and some other species are regarded both in law and by the landowners/tenants who are on the damage receiving end.
For example, other “pest species” such as the humble fox can be shot 24/7 and 52 weeks of the year by pretty much any means, conversely the badger enjoys saint-like immunity from any “control” measures - clearly an outdated paradox which is long overdue a review. If you accept that then why should deer enjoy the protection currently in place in terms of shooting seasons and the frankly nonsensical hour before and hour after sunset stipulations - in truth they can cause more damage than the fox; like the fox they are more active in darkness and many great improvements have been made in recent years in the means to effectively and humanely control them, not least being thermal spotters/sights?
Sooo - revise the outdated victorian-era legislation and introduce a mammalian pest species “General Licence” (sound familiar - think of birds…) which lists deer, foxes et al as lawful quarry and stipulates the approved means of controlling them - 12 months of the year if required.
Kinda sauce for the fox…..
Helmet on, chinstrap tightened….

 

[Pete6.5]

Most the current deer regulations were written in a time of low deer numbers and designed to help increase the deer population. The big problem is they haven't been looked at and adapted as the situation has changed.

 

[Tim.243]

Most the current deer regulations were written in a time of low deer numbers and designed to help increase the deer population. The big problem is they haven't been looked at and adapted as the situation has changed.

The Land Deer Act That Time Forgot....

 

[nun_hunter]

Adding a month at the start of the season is no different to adding it at the end. The issue of deer 'wising up' will be the same at the end of the season if it starts a month earlier or ends a month later.

No different to daylight savings time, the day is still just as long no matter when you start it.

There is a Native American saying "only the white man would cut the bottom off his blanket to sew on the top and believe he had a longer blanket".

Making the doe season longer does make sense, for welfare reasons adding a month at the end makes more sense but as to deer getting wise by the end it matters not when the end is but how long it goes on.

 

[25 Sharps]

I think go the other way as they are part of the land, farmers work the land when it is right and good conditions, at the moment the land is dry and conditions are good, also they soon wise up. Come Nov the conditions change and the deer are a lot smarter also at the moment the land is being prepped come Nov the winter wheat/barley/rape will have been drilled at a great cost with deer feeding on it with most farming over till the spring.

Farms harvest when thing are ready and with the weather, leave it to late and you can't get on the ground and will have a poor return,
Same with stalking.

The 5 does would not be feeding 20 calf's as the others have joined the group (as they do) she would be feeding her own.
The 6 calf's with the one Doe were following one or 2 of hers.

My comments are from what I see so if the seasons are working why do we have so many deer?

If you bring the season forward the deer will just get smarter, sooner.

 

[Heym SR20]

I don’t think a change of seasons is necessary. Indeed I think there need to close seasons to allow deer to be unmolested for a while.

I do think we need a rethink on how we go about achieving culls required. We can learn a lot from our continental neighbours with the bulk of the cull concentrated in driven type hunts with hunters out in stands and beaters moving things about.

It is perfectly possible to do these in populated areas. I have been such hunts in the suburban of Dortmund and Hagn.

These hunts achieve the numbers required in just the one or days over the winter. Much less overall stress on the animals.

In such hunts neighbouring hunting areas get together with all the guns joining forces. And once everything is gralloched and lardered then the food and the party starts. Typically there will be hunt somewhere in the district once a week, but most woods / hunting blocks will only have one or two hunts a season.

These mostly happen in the depths of winter. There is always a clear cull plan as to numbers, age etc. and as soon as you have shot something you message / radio in so a running tally is kept. Once cull target of say old does, or 4 point roe bucks is achieved all guns are notified so no more are shot.

Typically these hunts achieve 50 to 60% of the annual cull, and in particular its the females, yearlings etc which are taken.

During the summer and early autumn the hunter focus on their own areas and its the time for more traditional individual stalking going after particular animals.

In the UK we seem be constantly chasing our tails with individuals spending a huge amount of time trying to shoot and recover lots of beasts. Beauty of the driven / group type hunts is that the work is shared. A big red stag is difficult to deal with on your own. But with half a dozen of you dragging it to a vehicle its easy.

Such management does require communication and cooperation between neighbours. But since its mutual and reciprocal it just works.

The atmosphere / occasion is more akin to farmer type game shooting where neighbours across a district all reciprocate. I can’t help there is huge opportunity as phaesant shooting gets more and more expensive and problematic, that actually the hunting days of the future will be more on deer management than on game birds.

We might not have many wild boar, but muntjac are pretty the size and speed of the yearling pigs that make a large proportion of cull in Europe.