Lead update.

Hopefully you will also be spending my money by funding research and gathering evidence to underpin further lobbying of minsters and officials that the risk of using lead shot by all within the confinement of a clay ground is acceptable.
Such evidence as restricting lead shot size to 2.2mm and smaller.

So many had so little to say during the consultation
i have said it before apathy will be the end of our way of life

I have wrote it elsewhere maybe on this site

This year we have gone to steel shot - various reasons - but the decision was made.
A number of our guns complained about it as is their right - when asked if any had filled in and responded to the consultation that i had forwarded to them their faces were just blank

We need to start learning our lessons
 
Same as we have been for the last 40 years - these days the birds actually show better
I wondered if it was simply more pellets as most of us are using 32 grams
My thinking was that lead will throw tighter patterns with a few flyers that might have brought birds down, while steel patterns might be more evenly spread.
 
My thinking was that lead will throw tighter patterns with a few flyers that might have brought birds down, while steel patterns might be more evenly spread.
Im not sure JTO - if you read the "research" most suggest a tighter pattern with steel i believe
 
My thinking was that lead will throw tighter patterns with a few flyers that might have brought birds down, while steel patterns might be more evenly spread.

I also wonder if with a new product people are starting from the ground - what i mean is they dont have a "favourite" number 7and a half 28 gram load that they have used for years and think kills everything - we are all "maybe" now using a cartridge more "suited" to what we are shooting ?
 
I would have thought that a lead-free foxing option wouldn't need to be particularly long as it wouldn't need to weigh as much as a deer bullet. I would have thought a prefragmented front section in 50-60gr would do the job?? Something like a Geco Zero perhaps. I can't see any reason why a 55gr Geco zero wouldn't work in 1:10 twist .243's
Thanks, I will pass that onto colleagues.
 
If it is, I'd rather see the fact before accepting it.

Well, you said it yourself. It seems to me that if the HSE is reviewing lead abecause the ECHA is reviewing lead, then you can hardly blame that on Brexit. Rather it seems that Brexit was the only possible way (not taken) to avoid reviewing lead ammunition.
I was asked about the HSE process and I explained it and at the risk of labouring the point, the UK REACH regulations and the HSE reviews of various hazardous substances, including lead in ammunition, is all because of Brexit and this was/is to ensure continued trade in chemicals with the EU post-Brexit. It's not about 'blaming' Brexit, it's just a matter of fact.

Yes, if the UK were still EU members then there would be no HSE review and all the UK would have the ECHA restriction proposals on lead ammunition on the horizon. That said, due to the Brexit deal and Northern Ireland protocol, NI could be subject to those EU lead ammunition restrictions. And as I have pointed out earlier, legislative powers to regulate the sale and use of lead ammunition are devolved and there are already lead shot regulations in place in each of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The devolved governments have always had the power to bring in further restrictions (subject to public consultation) regardless of the the HSE review - which only came about because of Brexit.
 
So many had so little to say during the consultation
i have said it before apathy will be the end of our way of life

I have wrote it elsewhere maybe on this site

This year we have gone to steel shot - various reasons - but the decision was made.
A number of our guns complained about it as is their right - when asked if any had filled in and responded to the consultation that i had forwarded to them their faces were just blank

We need to start learning our lessons
Your experience on your shoot transitioning to steel shot is important and will be influencing people that read about it, even if they do not react to it.

It is frustrating that more people don't engage in consultations etc., typically a few percent of us on any particular campaign, but that is not unique to the shooting community.

That said UK shooters have been much more engaged on the Health & Safety Executive review of lead in ammunition relative to hunters in Republic of Ireland and mainland Europe on the European Chemicals Agency review. The EU review had 319 responses to their 6-month public consultation on initial proposals and 175 responses for their 2-month consultation on revised proposals. That's from 6+ million hunters. Here in the UK there were 2,759 responses to the 6-month public consultation and 8,159 responses to the 2-month consultation on revised proposals.

As a result of that engagement (which the HSE refers to as our feedback and evidence 'dwarfing' the responses to ECHA consultations) the HSE recommendations are less draconian than the ECHA recommendations.

So, thank you to those SD members that did make the time to respond to one or both HSE consultations. And there will be more calls to action ahead.
 
The recommendation (in part) is for the ban on large calibre lead bullets for live quarry and they classify large calibre as equal to or greater than 6.17mm. 6mm or .243” being the nominal land diameter.

I have just measured nine Hornady, 6mm, 65grn V-Max and they all came out consistently at 6.15mm, so by definition not large calibre bullets. I wonder how many other 6mm bullets actually measure 6.17mm or more?

Anybody able to measure a few ‘deer’ bullets?
100gr .243 Sako Gamehead measure 6.09mm.
 
Sent the below to my MP - section 4.7 is the kicker where they basically admit they have very little actual evidence supporting the restrictions they are pushing …


I write to you in regard to the recent publication by HSE on the usage of lead ammunition in Great Britain – the report is available here: Statement on HSE proposals to restrict use of lead ammunition in Great Britain – HSE Media Centre



Despite a lengthy consultation process, the HSE seems to have jumped to a series of foregone conclusions and recommendations that do not seem to be backed up by any clear scientific evidence.



The introduction to the report notes that back in 2010 the Lead Ammunition Group (LAG) concluded that the only way to address the perceived risks to wildlife and human health was to phase out lead ammunition entirely, and that a number of shooting organisations left LAG as they did not agree with the conclusions LAG was putting forward. From what I have seen and read it was widely perceived at the time that LAG had very little scientific evidence backing up their claims, and to be frank was simply an anti-shooting body, yet this report also states in its introduction that the HSE has “extensively referenced the work down by LAG” as a basis for this proposal despite these being seemingly discredited and discounted at the time.



The summary of the HSE’s recommendations are below:







I would like to draw your attention to Section 4.7 of the above linked report titled “Assumptions, uncertainties and sensitivities” wherein I found a number of assumptions that seemed to me to render the HSE’s findings and recommendations null and void, and at the very least should attract some thorough questioning before any legislation is considered.



In terms of the environmental assessment the HSE’s assumptions are in standard text, and my queries are in italics in the bullet points underneath:



  • A number of estimates were provided for the tonnages of each ammunition type for each use, each with uncertainties depending on the estimation method used. In particular, estimates of airgun ammunition are very uncertain. Tonnage values selected for use in this assessment should not be seen as definitive but are sufficient for the purposes of this assessment for the reasons described in the Background Document.
    • I find it hard to understand how the HSE can make a recommendation proposing that lead ammunition be largely banned when they are unable to determine how much of it has been put (back) into the environment by lawful shooting activities. I also see no differentiation between civilian shooters and the military, who presumably discharge far more ammunition than we do.
  • Although a risk has been identified for primary and secondary poisoning of birds, estimates of the numbers of birds at risk are uncertain (N.B., the number of organisms at risk has not been a factor in any environment focussed restriction of other substances under REACH).
    • The HSE has no idea how many birds have been poisoned either primarily or secondarily as a result of the usage of lead ammunition. How can they propose a ban when there is no clear evidence one is needed?
  • No GB data on primary ingestion by grazing mammals have been identified, although it is assumed to be a possibility based on evidence from other countries.
    • As above, this is an assumption only with no clear evidence, even anecdotal, that a ban is needed in order to address an issue.
  • No GB data on secondary poisoning of predatory or scavenging non-avian species have been identified
    • Likewise, the HSE admits there is no data available in the UK indicating that predatory or scavenging wildlife is impacted by lead shot.
  • GB data on lead concentrations in surface or groundwater associated with the use of lead ammunition are not available.
    • As above, there is no data or clear evidence requiring a ban as a result of lead contaminating surface or groundwater.
  • A single study reports ingestion of airgun pellets by birds. It is unclear whether this exposure pathway is significant in GB.
    • Whilst the HSE has been able to present a single study indicating ingestion of bird pellets, I would argue a single study should not necessitate a nationwide ban on anything, and besides this airgun pellets are one of the items the HSE is NOT including in its proposed ban (not that I am advocating they should).
  • Throughout the dossier the risks posed have been considered for all uses of lead ammunition combined. Where the same risk is identified for different uses we have considered whether the relative risks can be determined qualitatively, but this assessment is uncertain. Tonnage used annually is used as a general indicator of relative risk. However, for secondary 105 poisoning of birds in particular, the use of annual tonnage is not considered a suitable proxy to determine the relative partitioning of risks from lead derived from shot and lead derived from bullets.
    • The HSE admits its assessments are uncertain, and is simply basing their recommendations on “tonnage = risk” despite scant other evidence of any risk or impact at all.


Then moving on to uncertainties in human health:



  • Some estimates of the numbers of people in the UK that consume game birds were based on data that did not differentiate between wild-shot birds (potentially contaminated with lead) and farmed birds (not killed with lead ammunition).
    • There has been no clear differentiation between people who eat farmed game (IE not potentially shot with lead) and wild game that has been hunted. This could potentially be inflating the size of the perceived risk and inflating the perception of the need for a ban.
  • There is a lack of information on consumption of game meat by children and pregnant women.
    • I would suggest that the first step should be for the HSE to get the data and see if there is a problem, rather than presenting a conclusion and a recommendation without a robust piece of data led analysis backing it up.
  • Large variations in lead concentrations in different game meat samples and cuts of meat, particularly for large game killed with bullets, because lead contamination from the ammunition is not evenly distributed throughout the animal; some samples might have highly elevated lead levels (for example, close to bullet wound channels), whereas in other samples levels might not be elevated.
    • There could potentially be some form of recommendation here (EG, disposing of an area of X inches of meat around the wound channel) which could help address this issue, however the counter argument here is that the amount of lead contamination is extremely variable and as such I would argue the risk can be managed and mitigated with far less intrusive and draconian measures.
  • The relative contributions of game hunted with lead shot and game hunted with lead bullets to game meat consumption in GB, and the annual tonnage of the latter.
    • There is no clear evidence or delineation between perceived impacts from lead bullets vs lead shot. How the HSE is able to form recommendations banning one form or the other, or both, is beyond me given they have no evidence clearly supporting either approach.
  • The relative partitioning of human-health risks from lead derived from shot and lead derived from bullets, considering the impacts of released lead quantities, shot-to-kill ratios, lead distribution in the animals, proportion of hunted animals destined for human consumption, butchery practices and cuts of meat consumed.
    • Related to the above, there is therefore no clear linkage between lead shot vs lead bullets when it comes to the potential for lead exposure via shot game. Again, I find it hard to see how the HSE has recommended a ban on either form of lead ammunition given the lack of evidence supporting it.
  • Uncertainty about the proportion of ammunition-derived lead that is absorbed or how much BLLs are increased per unit of dietary lead ingested.
    • Again, I cannot see how we can be talking about wholesale bans when the HSE is not clear on how much of an already unclear amount of lead ingested is actually absorbed into the body.
  • Very limited information on how game meat consumption affects BLL in hunter families.
    • Related to the above, it is also unclear as to how much of the uncertain amount of lead ingested impacts people who hunt, who typically eat more game than the average person.
  • A lack of reliable measurements of BLL in children of high game meat consuming (hunter) families.
    • And again, it is unclear how much this might impact the children of such people.
  • Impacts on human health of possibly different exposure patterns from the consumption of small game hunted with lead shot and large game hunted with lead bullets.
    • Again, this points to a series of assumptions that are shaky at best and unfounded at worst, yet are being used as a basis for an extremely heavy handed proposal.


Related to all of the above, I would like to draw your attention to the below graph from the European Food Safety Agency, showing the percentage contribution of total exposure of lead in food. You will note that lead from game meat ranks below cephalopods (the likes of calamari and octopus) and only slightly above algae as a food source. This does not paint a picture supporting any sort of a ban or restriction given ones Friday night pint and our own tap water contribute far more highly than lead shot game.







I am not ideologically wedded to lead as an ammunition type and were there clear evidence of harm being caused by its use I would be far more inclined to be accepting of the HSE’s recommendations. Given the above this seems like an incredibly heavy handed and draconian approach being taken on the basis of scant evidence and broad sweeping assumptions, with little in the way of data led research backing up the assumptions.



Can I please ask you to raise this at your earliest convenience with the HSE and in Parliament, and can I please ask for your support in rejecting the HSE’s recommendations on the basis of the lack of supporting evidence?



I look forward to hearing from you.
 
Yeah time will tell how it actually affects us all.
Not the first or last issue to challenge the shooting world and another restriction, but there always seems to be a work around!
 
Your experience on your shoot transitioning to steel shot is important and will be influencing people that read about it, even if they do not react to it.

It is frustrating that more people don't engage in consultations etc., typically a few percent of us on any particular campaign, but that is not unique to the shooting community.

That said UK shooters have been much more engaged on the Health & Safety Executive review of lead in ammunition relative to hunters in Republic of Ireland and mainland Europe on the European Chemicals Agency review. The EU review had 319 responses to their 6-month public consultation on initial proposals and 175 responses for their 2-month consultation on revised proposals. That's from 6+ million hunters. Here in the UK there were 2,759 responses to the 6-month public consultation and 8,159 responses to the 2-month consultation on revised proposals.

As a result of that engagement (which the HSE refers to as our feedback and evidence 'dwarfing' the responses to ECHA consultations) the HSE recommendations are less draconian than the ECHA recommendations.

So, thank you to those SD members that did make the time to respond to one or both HSE consultations. And there will be more calls to action ahead.

Conor
I know we have engaged over several things and sometimes agree and sometimes dont - but with the simply appalling numbers responding last time may i suggest you - BASC - look at the "marketing" - i said at the time if you recall that the one of the "adverts" was poor
Your experience on your shoot transitioning to steel shot is important and will be influencing people that read about it, even if they do not react to it.

It is frustrating that more people don't engage in consultations etc., typically a few percent of us on any particular campaign, but that is not unique to the shooting community.

That said UK shooters have been much more engaged on the Health & Safety Executive review of lead in ammunition relative to hunters in Republic of Ireland and mainland Europe on the European Chemicals Agency review. The EU review had 319 responses to their 6-month public consultation on initial proposals and 175 responses for their 2-month consultation on revised proposals. That's from 6+ million hunters. Here in the UK there were 2,759 responses to the 6-month public consultation and 8,159 responses to the 2-month consultation on revised proposals.

As a result of that engagement (which the HSE refers to as our feedback and evidence 'dwarfing' the responses to ECHA consultations) the HSE recommendations are less draconian than the ECHA recommendations.

So, thank you to those SD members that did make the time to respond to one or both HSE consultations. And there will be more calls to action ahead.

Conor
We have engaged on several topics and although we dont see eye to eye on everything we both certainly agree on the fact that we need more people to act.
In previous discussions we covered the Act Now campaign and i said it was not "obvious" enough and "engaging" enough - maybe you guys look at making it more eye catching -as part of the process is simply just getting people to read what is initially in front of them
 
Is there RELIABLE data regarding the number of respondents to the consultation?

I know I responded. I know my friends who shoot responded. I am told many responded from my shooting club.

Maybe we are abnormal. Or maybe there were more responses than we are led to believe?
 
A note about the numbers used in public debate, which appear to usually have been fabricated from guesstimates by antis.
It's interesting that the HSE appears to think that we fire about 250 million cartridges worth of lead around the countryside per year. Combined with the other well-used fictitious statistic that fifty-something million game birds are released annually, and the usual return on them, this implies the average gun has a hit rate of 1:12.
That should make the poorer shots among us feel in good company, or make others think that we need to examine more closely for credibility, statistical validity, and besic plausibility the numbers produced by antis.
 
Thanks but no thanks. It's to cruel.
Ohhhh here we go again….it works fine for wildfowl in the UK, Ireland Europe and the USA, its becoming mandatory on game shoots, but it doesn’t work in your guns on your patch for your pheasants?
Really?
I mean REALLY.
How can that possibly be?
 
Ohhhh here we go again….it works fine for wildfowl in the UK, Ireland Europe and the USA, its becoming mandatory on game shoots, but it doesn’t work in your guns on your patch for your pheasants?
Really?
I mean REALLY.
How can that possibly be?
Hey, I know, I was just as disappointed.
I think I've got 7 left. Out of that one box I missed a few more than normal for me. Peppered or pricked 4 birds and lost 2 runners that should be entered in the next Olympics.
When I bought them I was full of anticipation.

The thing is though the moment I used lead birds were dropping dead again.
On Monday when I switched to lead I soon had three birds in the bag for 4 shots and the cartridges weren't even my favourites!
 
@Conor O'Gorman response please. The more you read the HSE document the more you realise how illogical it is and I doubt the author actually got out of the office to experience the different types of shooting and risks associated with them.

IMG_4629.jpeg
 
Hey, I know, I was just as disappointed.
I think I've got 7 left. Out of that one box I missed a few more than normal for me. Peppered or pricked 4 birds and lost 2 runners that should be entered in the next Olympics.
When I bought them I was full of anticipation.

The thing is though the moment I used lead birds were dropping dead again.
On Monday when I switched to lead I soon had three birds in the bag for 4 shots and the cartridges weren't even my favourites!
I did something similar with a 20 bore I borrowed, but I know that if it works for everyone else it should work for me too.
So probably a “me” issue.
Would you consider Bismuth? I haven’t tried it myself yet, price per cartridge is up around full bore centre fire levels, but it seems to mimic lead pretty closely.
How is your gun choked? Steel doesn’t like or need anything over 1/2 apparently.
Stick with it, you’ll find something that you’ll be happy to shoot with and keeps you on the right side of the regulations..
 
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