Lead update.

https://Immersive-optics.com/
enfieldspares said:
I keep posting this until I am blue in the face. But why has the New Zealand system not been suggested for the UK? I suggest because, the truth is the February 2020 document circulated by BASC was to protect its investment in the then British Game Alliance and an attempt to defend the then under attack by Wild Justice justify commercial "big bag" shooting as harvesting game meat for the marketplace.

The UK is now OUT of the EU and, again, that leave was promoted as enabling us to make our own laws. But of course commercial "big bag" shot game is often sold in the EU. So I'll ask again "cui bono"? Who benefits? And second is that the why has the New Zealand system not been suggested for the UK? Is it because it would not suit this defence of harvesting game meat of the "big bag" commercial shoots?

So, again, as said before everybody who along with the CPSA who also did not sign or who did not agree with that February 2020 round-robin gets thrown under the bus and any attempt to now resist the HSE proposals is rebuked by reference to the "voice of shooting" and others having themselves suggested an "end to lead shot". Not now just for live quarry shooting but for clay pigeon shooting as well.

So any here who are BASC members might, please, ask directly why is the New Zealand model not being proposed here? And maybe share that answer?

Non-toxic shot regulations

Hunters are required to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl within 200 metres of water. 2021 saw a complete ban on the use of lead shot for all but 410 gauge, and that exemption ended at the end of the 2023 game bird hunting season. This ban will be strictly enforced on public, private...
www.fishandgame.org.nz www.fishandgame.org.nz
Click to expand...
As long as fools keep paying basics wages old Enfield we are scewed🤷
 
enfieldspares said:
I keep posting this until I am blue in the face. But why has the New Zealand system not been suggested for the UK? I suggest because, the truth is the February 2020 document circulated by BASC was to protect its investment in the then British Game Alliance and an attempt to defend the then under attack by Wild Justice justify commercial "big bag" shooting as harvesting game meat for the marketplace.

The UK is now OUT of the EU and, again, that leave was promoted as enabling us to make our own laws. But of course commercial "big bag" shot game is often sold in the EU. So I'll ask again "cui bono"? Who benefits? And second is that the why has the New Zealand system not been suggested for the UK? Is it because it would not suit this defence of harvesting game meat of the "big bag" commercial shoots?

So, again, as said before everybody who along with the CPSA who also did not sign or who did not agree with that February 2020 round-robin gets thrown under the bus and any attempt to now resist the HSE proposals is rebuked by reference to the "voice of shooting" and others having themselves suggested an "end to lead shot". Not now just for live quarry shooting but for clay pigeon shooting as well.

So any here who are BASC members might, please, ask directly why is the New Zealand model not being proposed here? And maybe share that answer?

Non-toxic shot regulations

Hunters are required to use non-toxic shot when hunting waterfowl within 200 metres of water. 2021 saw a complete ban on the use of lead shot for all but 410 gauge, and that exemption ended at the end of the 2023 game bird hunting season. This ban will be strictly enforced on public, private...
www.fishandgame.org.nz www.fishandgame.org.nz
Click to expand...
Lead in ammunition, and some hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent makeup, were the first areas to be reviewed in 2021 under post-Brexit legislation called UK REACH on the control of hazardous chemicals. These HSE reviews came about following Brexit to ensure continued trade in chemicals with the EU post-Brexit. Northern Ireland is excluded due to the NI protocol and continues to be subject to EU REACH regulations.

In June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE has proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for UK REACH at the start of 2021. Nothing has happened since.

Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams.

This is a new process in the UK and no legislative changes as yet.

Defra and the Scottish and Welsh Governments will review the HSE report and decide whether to propose legislation (noting the substances in tatoos and permanent make-up were at this stage of review in June 2023 and nothing has happened).

If laws on lead ammunition are proposed this could be the same for England, Wales and Scotland or we could see different laws in different countries - as happened when the lead shot regulations for wildfowl and/or wetlands came into force over 20 years ago. The devolved governments have always had the power to bring in further restrictions (subject to public consultation) regardless of the HSE review.

More details on the HSE restriction proposals here:

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained
 
Conor O'Gorman said:
Which shooting organisation are you a member of?
Click to expand...
When your point of view you seem to like to ask this question, as if one is only allowed to disagree with BASC if one is a member.
BASC portrays itself as the ‘voice of shooting’ therefore I’m afraid must take criticism from the shooting community at large.
 
palmer_mike said:
When your point of view you seem to like to ask this question, as if one is only allowed to disagree with BASC if one is a member.
BASC portrays itself as the ‘voice of shooting’ therefore I’m afraid must take criticism from the shooting community at large.
Click to expand...
Calling people that support BASC 'fools' is not constructive criticism, even less so when the same person recently started a thread calling on all current members to 'relinquish their membership'. As a BASC member I am certainly interested which organisations, if any, that person supports in this context given the evangelical comments being made against my organisation.

As for lead ammunition, nothing has been decided yet and BASC has had success in challenging a number of the HSE proposals since 2021, not least the HSE dropping its proposal to ban lead airgun pellets. For more information see:

basc.org.uk

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained

Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.
basc.org.uk basc.org.uk
 
In Russia this year I believe 400 people were arrested for what they said on social media.
In Britain it was over 3500!
It's now obvious that Mr O'Gorman also believes certain words in opposition to his organisation not only thinks they should be censored but also condemned.
I'm not surprised at all. This organisation and it's controllers like all the praise but can't take criticism.
They are in fact not much different than the politicians we have come to loath. They like giving it out but struggle to receive it back.

Whilst the BASC likes to think or give it's members the impression that they are the voice of shooting they have capitulated many many times. Their involvement is more of a damage limitation exercise with their so called voice. They court the political scene that is constantly eroding our collective freedoms.

So what if BASC have prevented some restrictions proposed by HSE. They have and will also fail many times or simply concede and roll over on many points of what I call oppression. They will counter that they do not simply roll over and that maybe true but the fact remains they will have to compromise on many many issues because that is what happens when you play the political scene in Britain.
Oh it's not just the BASC, no it's the age old British way of divide and conquer. We are being divided. Basically there are those that want to play the game and there are those few that are sick of having to play a game.
Those are the ones that Mr O' Gorman doesn't think are helpful!
Maybe they the unhelpful should be silenced, have their voices thwarted. For the greater good etc etc.

Many so called members are perfectly happy with this level service but some of us are not.
They therefore are classed as " not helpful" but actually we " the unhelpful" are just sick of the status quo.
We are sick of having to always reach for the sticky end of the stick whilst looking up to our masters and having to pretend we are grateful that they have yet again pulled us out of a hole we never got ourselves into in the first place!
Why should I as a tax payer for example be expected to play second fiddle all the time because I like to shoot?
Why should I feel pressured to join an organisation that I know will sacrifice the freedom's of the little man to protect the traditions of the wealthy men?

So to sum up here we are again in mankind's history, a tired little man prepared to speak out against the very ones proclaiming to be his saviour being the very one that actually tramples on the same little man whilst they form alliances with the ones they are supposed to save him from!

Do you know what, I don't actually care anymore. Nothing will change. It matters not what any of us say. We will always be politically sacrificial pawns just because we are unfashionable. But one thing is certain. I for one will always object to oppression or being ostracized when innocent.
This lead thing is a crock, a total elaborate fabrication to disrupt the now unfashionable pass time that is shooting. The start of the new old world order. The order by which elaborate overwhelming bull**** is used to control the easily blinded masses. A tyranny. Very sad....

I'm shooting today as will many. My cartridges as will my good friends with me contain lead just like thousands of others shooting tomorrow. That is a fact. So for now the bull**** isn't working! So I guess it'll be forced upon us. Very sad....
 
A very good post Smellydog, and many of the same points I agree with.

There is an assumption that we are “negotiating”….we need to take a similar stance to the US NRA - do not give one inch as “they” will not stop eroding our sport until it’s gone.

A negotiation that gives up a small amount of ground will just lead to the next negotiation where we loose more small amounts of ground….it would be refreshing to see us GAIN some ground instead of consistently losing it and portraying that as a “small win”….🙄

I wish the SGA, U.K. NRA and BASC would grow some teeth and more aggressively fight our case.
 
finnbear270 said:
Shame they can't see beyond their own fiefdoms, bit like Chief Constables, ..... If the shooting "Voices" all joined up we might save the sport.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, the most recent occasion they did this they proposed the ‘voluntary’ transition away from lead ammunition.

Funny how ‘voluntary’ proposals have a habit of becoming mandatory. If only BASC et al had foreseen this and not been so quick to volunteer us (sell us down the river 😂).
 
So today I was invited to a true rough shoot. Where you have to work bloody hard. Steep sided hills and valleys just into Wales.
I shot 10 of the 23 +1 woodcock total. I consider myself spoilt rotten today but alas, I shot 23 cartridges minimum! I used mostly lead.
IMG_20241226_144340.webp
So not awesome but here is the interesting part and in the spirit of truth and transparency I finished the remaining 5 or 6 steel cartridges I had not been impressed with.
However today I cleanly killed three birds with them! I have to say that I came away feeling encouraged.
Incidentally I was the only person present today with some non lead! Two chaps had no idea of the proposals to ban lead at all!

I asked my friend what else he stocks in steel and he has some fiochhi steel but they are real plastic wads. I'll give some a try and report back.
Now, please don't think even for a nano second I'm now fine with the proposed lead ban because I'm not! And I will stock up on lead before any steel.
 
Smellydog said:
So today I was invited to a true rough shoot. Where you have to work bloody hard. Steep sided hills and valleys just into Wales.
I shot 10 of the 23 +1 woodcock total. I consider myself spoilt rotten today but alas, I shot 23 cartridges minimum! I used mostly lead.
View attachment 398903
So not awesome but here is the interesting part and in the spirit of truth and transparency I finished the remaining 5 or 6 steel cartridges I had not been impressed with.
However today I cleanly killed three birds with them! I have to say that I came away feeling encouraged.
Incidentally I was the only person present today with some non lead! Two chaps had no idea of the proposals to ban lead at all!

I asked my friend what else he stocks in steel and he has some fiochhi steel but they are real plastic wads. I'll give some a try and report back.
Now, please don't think even for a nano second I'm now fine with the proposed lead ban because I'm not! And I will stock up on lead before any steel.
Click to expand...

Cant fault your honesty SD thats for sure
Sounds like a good day

One of lads said today - i think i may have winged a couple more than with lead - what did i think ?

I said if the shot hit the head or the vitals its the same as with lead - steel - or even stones - They die
 
gixer1 said:
A very good post Smellydog, and many of the same points I agree with.

There is an assumption that we are “negotiating”….we need to take a similar stance to the US NRA - do not give one inch as “they” will not stop eroding our sport until it’s gone.

A negotiation that gives up a small amount of ground will just lead to the next negotiation where we loose more small amounts of ground….it would be refreshing to see us GAIN some ground instead of consistently losing it and portraying that as a “small win”….🙄

I wish the SGA, U.K. NRA and BASC would grow some teeth and more aggressively fight our case.
Click to expand...
I am of the understanding the NRA UK did show the HSE how lead was harvested from the rifle butts on a regular basis which is why ranges complying with NRA range construction guidance can continue to use lead ammo. My concern also centres on clay shooting businesses and the impact new regs will have on them.
 
Smellydog said:
So today I was invited to a true rough shoot. Where you have to work bloody hard. Steep sided hills and valleys just into Wales.
I shot 10 of the 23 +1 woodcock total. I consider myself spoilt rotten today but alas, I shot 23 cartridges minimum! I used mostly lead.
View attachment 398903
So not awesome but here is the interesting part and in the spirit of truth and transparency I finished the remaining 5 or 6 steel cartridges I had not been impressed with.
However today I cleanly killed three birds with them! I have to say that I came away feeling encouraged.
Incidentally I was the only person present today with some non lead! Two chaps had no idea of the proposals to ban lead at all!

I asked my friend what else he stocks in steel and he has some fiochhi steel but they are real plastic wads. I'll give some a try and report back.
Now, please don't think even for a nano second I'm now fine with the proposed lead ban because I'm not! And I will stock up on lead before any steel.
Click to expand...
Bettws ? Smelly.
 
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