How accurate are lever action rifles?

[Smellydog]

I'm not sure why anyone would take a modern tactical rifle as a benchmark for how a hunting rifle might handle.
I have some nice, lightweight bolt-action and fixed-breech rifles that I doubt a lever action would improve upon, especially one wearing a scope. They're not shooting pistol cartridges or .30-30 either.
Maybe I've simply not shot enough *good* lever-actions. I can only speak for the ones I have shot, which have all been afflicted by at least one of the following: a poor trigger, a slow lock time, an uncomfortable grip, an optics-unfriendly comb, indifferent ballistics, or an eagerness to poke me in the nose (no doubt shared at times like these by some SD members).
I confess to having a bit of a soft spot for vintage Savage 1899s, but even this enjoyable thread isn't kindling any desire to squeeze a regular lever action into my cabinet.

Ok then. Don't have one.
That's you sorted.
Next....

 

[Klenchblaize]

Always wanted one of these. Specifically the model "Stinger" in Bee or Hornet:

K

 

[Smellydog]

So...leverguns can't shoot from a bench hey....

 

[Andy Mauthe]

If you want an accurate lever action rifle buy something that is built to look like a lever action rifle but is actually built using the workings of a self loading rifle or a front locking lug bolt action rifle with a box magazine. That brings to mind the Browning BLR that is an Armalite locking system or a SAKO Finnwolf. But I'd also ask how accurate do you need to be? Any lever action rifle using a tubular magazine will need flat point bullets and so bullet drop will be such that they are one hundred and fifty yard tools. If the thing shoots into three inches at that one hundred and fifty yards it's more than good enough for practical hunting applications.

Agreed. Add in the Henry Long Ranger to that group of highly accurate lever rifles. It’s very similar to the Browning BLR design. Front locking bolt and detachable magazine for nice pointy bullets. They are capable of sub MOA accuracy. Traditional lever actions were never intended for long range use because when they were invented, they were made for fast handling and shooting at moderate ranges. The Savage 99 is the one classic design that’s capable of producing pretty good accuracy particularly in the .300 Savage and .308 Win chamberings that use nice pointy bullets.

 

[Smellydog]

I made a short video today of my 3030 Winchester 94ae sporting a 3x scope.
Fortunately I don't want to shoot tics off rats backs so this levergun is just fine. In fact I would want it shooting at me however small I was!

 

[Andy Mauthe]

I made a short video today of my 3030 Winchester 94ae sporting a 3x scope.
Fortunately I don't want to shoot tics off rats backs so this levergun is just fine. In fact I would want it shooting at me however small I was!

I watched your video. Nice demonstration of a traditional lever action rifle shooting in real world situations. One to two MOA is more than adequate for the intended use those rifles were designed for at the ranges those calibers are effective to. I’ve got a pre-war model 94 in 30-30 that will do about the same when I’m on my game. It’s got a period correct peep sight and my eyes aren’t what they used to be. But I feel very confident with it at 100 yards to make good clean kills.

 

[Heym SR20]

I made a short video today of my 3030 Winchester 94ae sporting a 3x scope.
Fortunately I don't want to shoot tics off rats backs so this levergun is just fine. In fact I would want it shooting at me however small I was!

Oooh that’ll never work. Only clover type groups will kill. Far too much drop on 30-30. 3x Scope - how can you even see things with that? And plain optics with a straight tube? You need a minimum of 56 mm or digital.

I can hear the collective sucking of teeth. Even worse rifle has a wooden stock and pressure bedding from the fore end, magazine tube and barrel bands.

Worse is that it doesn’t have piccatiny rails or m-lock.

As for the cartridge. Rimmed - ruinous for accuracy.

As for shooting deer inside 100m. How could you ever get your pickup truck close enough to do that?

(N.B. Sarcasm alert).

 

[Smellydog]

Oooh that’ll never work. Only clover type groups will kill. Far too much drop on 30-30. 3x Scope - how can you even see things with that? And plain optics with a straight tube? You need a minimum of 56 mm or digital.

I can hear the collective sucking of teeth. Even worse rifle has a wooden stock and pressure bedding from the fore end, magazine tube and barrel bands.

Worse is that it doesn’t have piccatiny rails or m-lock.

As for the cartridge. Rimmed - ruinous for accuracy.

As for shooting deer inside 100m. How could you ever get your pickup truck close enough to do that?

(N.B. Sarcasm alert).

You forgot the lead bullets too....

 

[Heym SR20]

You forgot the lead bullets too....

You mean depleted uranium surely

 

[alberta boy]

I made a short video today of my 3030 Winchester 94ae sporting a 3x scope.
Fortunately I don't want to shoot tics off rats backs so this levergun is just fine. In fact I would want it shooting at me however small I was!

An excellent demonstration of practical hunting accuracy . That'll do .

AB

 

[Andy Mauthe]

You mean depleted uranium surely

And how good could anything be that wasn’t built using the latest CNC technology?

 

[The Singing Stalker]

Nice one Smelly though someone will be along in a minute to say it was far too far for offhand, sticks or tripod…..

It was definitely too far. I don’t think I could hit a barn door at 100 years off hand, never mind get grouping like that. So I’m calling, A liar liar, pants on fire.

It should also be noted that nobody can shoot better than me. Therefore I am an ex-pert.

 

[scrumbag]

So...leverguns can't shoot from a bench hey....

Really fancy one of those

 

[Scipio]

I shot unmoderated bolt rifles for years but nothing comes to the shoulder like most lever guns.
It's probably to do with them being slightly shorter stocked and the fore end being slimmer by comparison to modern bolt rifles.

With the current trend towards tactical designs something has been lost. Many a rifle shooter is dependant on a bipod or other rifle rest because to shoot proficiently off hand has all but disappeared. In the video link I posted notice how the rifleman is shooting offhand to 1100 yards on open sights!

Very good post, and i agree fully.
And would hunters even need red dots, or low power scopes for driven hunts, if they trained more with irons ?

As for the shouldering part you are spot on too, - the best shouldering rifle i have ever tried was a remington 600 mohawk stutzen, which has a 18 inch barrel and a total length of 95 cms or so.
And the point and shoot capability of the original Mannlicher S 1903 are also legendary, and they might be even a bit shorter than 95 cms. So yep, i think there is some magical about the shoulder and point/shoot quality of rifles around the 95 cms mark, be it lever action or bolt.


All in all, If i was hunting mainly in close brush or in dense woods, i'd probably get a levergun. One that was 95 cms or shorter in total length and was chambered in a 30 cal or greater. Besides shouldering well, they lend themselves well for quick follow up shots, and there is just something cool about them too.
Browning (BLR) and Henry (the long ranger) even make ones that arnt using tubular magazines, but regular ones, so they should in theory have better accuracy than the classic lever guns, and you dont have to use special ammo in them either. Browning even make a take down blr!

 

[jthyttin]

And would hunters even need red dots, or low power scopes for driven hunts, if they trained more with irons ?

You probably don't NEED anything, but for discriminate and fast shooting suitable optics are far superior to irons. Irons usually block too much FOV, they're very intolerant to low light, they require aligment of 3 points (instead of 2 points with optics) and so on.

 

[Heym SR20]

Very good post, and i agree fully.
And would hunters even need red dots, or low power scopes for driven hunts, if they trained more with irons ?

As for the shouldering part you are spot on too, - the best shouldering rifle i have ever tried was a remington 600 mohawk stutzen, which has a 18 inch barrel and a total length of 95 cms or so.
And the point and shoot capability of the original Mannlicher S 1903 are also legendary, and they might be even a bit shorter than 95 cms. So yep, i think there is some magical about the shoulder and point/shoot quality of rifles around the 95 cms mark, be it lever action or bolt.


All in all, If i was hunting mainly in close brush or in dense woods, i'd probably get a levergun. One that was 95 cms or shorter in total length and was chambered in a 30 cal or greater. Besides shouldering well, they lend themselves well for quick follow up shots, and there is just something cool about them too.
Browning (BLR) and Henry (the long ranger) even make ones that arnt using tubular magazines, but regular ones, so they should in theory have better accuracy than the classic lever guns, and you dont have to use special ammo in them either. Browning even make a take down blr!

No reason not to use iron sights. If you are used to them and practice then they work well. Key though with iron sights is a well fitting rifle that points like a shotgun and hits where you look. As you mount the gun the sights should be aligned. Practice makes perfect.

Challenge as you get older, iron sights get blurred and less easy to use.

 

[Scipio]

You probably don't NEED anything, but for discriminate and fast shooting suitable optics are far superior to irons. Irons usually block too much FOV, they're very intolerant to low light, they require aligment of 3 points (instead of 2 points with optics) and so on.

No reason not to use iron sights. If you are used to them and practice then they work well. Key though with iron sights is a well fitting rifle that points like a shotgun and hits where you look. As you mount the gun the sights should be aligned. Practice makes perfect.

Challenge as you get older, iron sights get blurred and less easy to use.

Hello to both of you

Well i do not want to high jack this thread much more than i already have, so i'll answer quite shortly here. However if we should wish to continue this subject matter further, making/finding a dedicated thread for irons sights use, and it's potential, might be a good idea

@jthyttin, you are naturally correct, there is little doubt that for some situations a red dot can be advantageous vs iron sights. Not just for the less iron sights trained users, (we'll come back to that below), but also if one has less than perfect eye sight, as Heym also very sensibly points out.
However, the era of pre-optics shooting might give an idea of just how effective, and quickly used, iron sights actually can be, if one, of course trains enough, and acquires the necessary skill level. Now if this isnt possible for a given user, a red dot might defintely be a better and easier way to go.

As for the sight alignment, i too have had the exact same thoughts as Heym, as how to best use irons for quick target acquisition, ie, as a shot gun basically, and i will be experimenting with that in the coming year, i expect. Naturally safely and not on game intially, before the necessary skill level is acquired, or i fail, in which case i might indeed have to resort to a red dot myself.

Good discussion!

 

[Heym SR20]

Hello to both of you

Well i do not want to high jack this thread much more than i already have, so i'll answer quite shortly here. However if we should wish to continue this subject matter further, making/finding a dedicated thread for irons sights use, and it's potential, might be a good idea

@jthyttin, you are naturally correct, there is little doubt that for some situations a red dot can be advantageous vs iron sights. Not just for the less iron sights trained users, (we'll come back to that below), but also if one has less than perfect eye sight, as Heym also very sensibly points out.
However, the era of pre-optics shooting might give an idea of just how effective, and quickly used, iron sights actually can be, if one, of course trains enough, and acquires the necessary skill level. Now if this isnt possible for a given user, a red dot might defintely be a better and easier way to go.

As for the sight alignment, i too have had the exact same thoughts as Heym, as how to best use irons for quick target acquisition, ie, as a shot gun basically, and i will be experimenting with that in the coming year, i expect. Naturally safely and not on game intially, before the necessary skill level is acquired, or i fail, in which case i might indeed have to resort to a red dot myself.

Good discussion!

My take on this, based on pretty much my experience. Mankind has an an extraordinary hand / eye coordination that with a bit of training allows you hit or catch a fast moving object with another. Throw a ball and you can catch it. Put a bucket 20 yards away and you can hit it with a stone. These are in-ate skills that just need be honed and developed.

A shotgun, double rifle or lever action rifle or a vintage bolt action rather follow this. You look at an object, the barrels naturally point and the bullet or shot charge hit it - there is not a lot to choose between a charge of shot - only a few inches in diameter at 20 yards or a bullet.

I have shot running boar targets with open sights. The sights really just help to ensure you have a good mount and that your eye is at proper height above the rib. You don’t look at the sights instead you just swing through and as the gets to the snout you squeeze. I have done this with doubles, and my combination gun - and its no different. You use the same technique on a bolting rabbit - live or a clay. Difference between a rabbit or rabbit clay and a fast moving boar, deer or bigger animal is that the killzone is quite a bit bigger, so instead of putting a ball of shot onto a small target, you are putting a single bullet into a bigger target.

Does an optic help in such shooting - yes and no in my view. Fundamentally gunfit for me is just as important. I have shot running targets with a scope and the cross hairs do help with the line and not shooting high. I have shot running boar and deer with scope mounted, and to be honest didn’t really think about it. More there is a pig running across the field, swing through and its dead.

For a lot of driven hunting, a lot of shots are not actually at fast targets, they at slow moving if not stationary, and in these a scope does help.

I do however think that optics like red dots do really work for novices, and help the likes of police and military become better shots than if just using iron sights. But if you can use iron sights on a fast handling rifle then they are very effective.

And I suspect that a lot of the accuracy of a lever action comes from its natural balance and ease of shooting. Look at a target, bring the rifle up, the sights are aligned and it naturally sits on target and bang - target is hit.

An Accuracy International sniper rifle may be more accurate once set up and accurately aimed at a target 600 metres away. But it won’t be much good on that buck that pops into a clearing 30 yards ahead of you whilst quietly walking through the woods.

 

[Smellydog]

The rear iron sight is for fine tuning what the main rear sight is looking at, the eye. The eye is the main rear sight.
If the eye is way off the rear sight then the stock needs adjusting.
Ironically my current Winchester 94 does not fit as well as my previous one! So my current one needs the eye to be moved which is all wrong. My previous 94 lined up perfectly.

I still took plenty on irons with this current rifle.

 

[Scipio]

Quite inspiring Smellydog (great name btw haha ,D ), i shall be giving it a good go, at getting better with the irons, also at moving targets, and then we'll see where it ends up.
My Mannlicher is quite short and shoulders pretty well, and it has a swivel scope mount too, so i can take the scope of and go to irons very quickly. I do need to potentially do something about my not greatly contrast giving front bead, though.

If not, true to the subject matter of this thread, procuring a lever action could be on the cards. I do hope it will work out with my MS though, as i'd rather spend money on my reloading kit this year.