'When' you mess up. Not 'if'

[25 Sharps]

Absolutely nobody. You're right. I doubt that was the issue here, and I don't think that @Quixote has said it was.
But shooting down hill, his point of aim on the body of the deer should certainly have been higher than it would have been on the flat, in order to allow for the angle at which the bullet was passing through the animal.

No, I know he didn’t, but other members asked where they should aim off to compensate for the angle. General rule is steeply angled up or down shots means gravity has less of an effect on the trajectory so the bullet strikes higher than you’d expect. Which means you aim low slightly low.

But, for the shot described, aiming at your normal aim point, would mean the impact point would result in a quickly dead deer.

 

[Brave Echo Niner]

Everyone makes mistakes, no question about it. The trick is minimising those errors where possible.

For most people this looks like proper practice with their equipment, as more often than not it’s us that lets ourselves down, not our kit.

In other circumstances it may be furthering our knowledge. It’s far better to learn from others mistakes than make them ourselves, so reading and listening goes a long way. CPD events such as those run by Forestry Commission / @Alastair Boston are an example of a good way to do this.

The rest of the skill is in being able to mop up the mess, which invariably falls into the above two camps too. Practice for the poor shot and getting a good follow up in, understand the procedure to follow when after a poor shot and/or following a wounded deer and mentally rehearse that, it will save some of the ‘jelly man/woman’ factor when something does go wrong.


Ben

 

[gelert]

But shooting down hill, his point of aim on the body of the deer should certainly have been higher than it would have been on the flat, in order to allow for the angle at which the bullet was passing through the animal.

No need to complicate things, you'd need a micrometer to see the difference at 110 yrds.
Zeroed at ,I imagine 100yrds the effects of shooting up or downhill at that distance would be trivial enough for most of us not to worry about having to aim high or low.

 

[VSS]

No need to complicate things, you'd need a micrometer to see the difference at 110 yrds.
Zeroed at ,I imagine 100yrds the effects of shooting up or downhill at that distance would be trivial enough for most of us not to worry about having to aim high or low.

If you're shooting up or down hill then the closer the deer the greater the effect, under normal stalking conditions, because the angle would be greater.
eg, if a deer is 30 yards below you at a range of 50 yards you'd need to aim a lot higher on the deer than if it was 30 yards below you at a range of 150 yards.
Extreme case would be a deer directly below you (under your highseat, perhaps?) in which case you'd aim right between the shoulder blades to hit the heart.

I think what you're referring to though is the effect of gravity, and you're right in so far as the difference between 100 yards and 110 yards is negligible. But we've already ascertained earlier in the thread that that wasn't the issue.

 

[User00056]

I messed up badly last week. Badly enough that I’m but yet ready to share the full extent of my stupidity publicly!

Feel free to tag me when you are. I could do with the company

 

[Mungo]

Feel free to tag me when you are. I could do with the company

It involved a botched neck shot, so the pitchfork mob will come for me…

 

[exmarksman9870]

Out of interest, what would be the correct adjustment of aim for a 30° downhill slope at 110 yards?

Just shoot it as you would 110y is not gona make a difference...

 

[User00056]

It involved a botched neck shot, so the pitchfork mob will come for me…

They'll be after me too then. I once took a 'perfect' neck shot at a buck that showed absolutely no reaction to the shot other than to turn and casually walk into cover. I was convinced it was a clean miss, and actually started to walk away when I thought better of it as I'd been so convinced it had been a solid shot. I went back to the shot site, wandered around a bit, and found droplets of blood. More casting found more droplets, and after a few minutes I walked up to a stone dead buck twenty yards into forestry. I can't say it was a 'botched' shot as it was almost perfectly placed. The bullet had deflected away from the spine, but had taken out a major blood vessel. If I hadn't gone back and checked I'd have been convinced to this day it had been a clean miss.

 

[Heym SR20]

Follow up shots.

I think the reason that most mess them up is adrenaline takes over. There is a strong temptation to get up a rush in. Resist it.

All this does is raise your own adrenaline and chances are you will spook the deer and it will be flooded with adrenaline and that gives it huge ability to disappear into the next county.

Much better to stay still, reload calmly and just wait. 30 seconds will feel like a lifetime. By staying in one place you will be in the best position for a follow up shot - something to consider before opening the batting. Your heart rate and breathing should be under control.

Watch the animal closely. Chances are it will stop and start to sway and stagger - thats it on its way out. You can put another shot in, but is it needed? If in doubt put it another shot, but take your time and do it correctly.

If the animal is moving keep an eye on it and watch with binoculars for as long as you can. Mark where you see it and where its going and especially where it goes into cover. Then give it a good 15 to 20 minutes. If you see it gut shot leave it even longer. A few hours perhaps.

you want the beast to lie up and stiffen, for any adrenaline to run out. Chances are it will pass away in a few minutes in peace.

Then start the restalk and follow up slowly. Look at the shot sight, and follow the tracks. A dog helps. Chances are you will find the animal dead quite quickly, or it will be lying up looking sick. Best not get too close but shoot from where you can take an accurate and safe shot.

I have in my younger days despatched a roe buck with a knife. It’s not a good idea. They are very strong and can easily cause a nasty injury as they struggle. Much better to shoot it without causing it any more distress.

In many cases just rushing in try and finish a wounded beast off just compounds the mess.

In terms of more suffering, plenty of evidence that pain doesn’t really occur in most cases till several minutes after major injury - especially if there is considerable impact and shock.

 

[gelert]

If you're shooting up or down hill then the closer the deer the greater the effect, under normal stalking conditions, because the angle would be greater.eg, if a deer is 30 yards below you at a range of 50 yards you'd need to aim a lot higher on the deer than if it was 30 yards below you at a range of 150 yards.Extreme case would be a deer directly below you (under your highseat, perhaps?) in which case you'd aim right between the shoulder blades to hit the heart.

You've gone off on a tangent again and over complicated things further.

The bullet's path, depends on the horizontal range to the target, not the line of sight range up or down hill.
Our eye see the line of sight range from our position to the target, which is longer than the horizontal range.

You'd be aiming low on a down hill shot anyway,but you've complicated the issue by saying you'd shoot higher on a downhill shot at 50 yards,than you would on 150yrds, completely irrelevant.

I think what you're referring to though is the effect of gravity, and you're right in so far as the difference between 100 yards and 110 yards is negligible. But we've already ascertained earlier in the thread that that wasn't the issue.

Gravity will be taking effect as soon as the bullet leaves the rifle.
99.9% of us on here would have aimed at the exact same spot as the op,at that distance and angle, myself included and not given two shiny.... about changing poi

 

[Hazlett]

You've gone off on a tangent again and over complicated things further.

The bullet's path, depends on the horizontal range to the target, not the line of sight range up or down hill.
Our eye see the line of sight range from our position to the target, which is longer than the horizontal range.

You'd be aiming low on a down hill shot anyway,but you've complicated the issue by saying you'd shoot higher on a downhill shot at 50 yards,than you would on 150yrds, completely irrelevant.


Gravity will be taking effect as soon as the bullet leaves the rifle.
99.9% of us on here would have aimed at the exact same spot as the op,at that distance and angle, myself included and not given two shiny.... about changing poi

I think that the consensus is that in ballistic terms, the effect of the downhill angle is not worth considering but the trajectory of the bullet through the body of the deer is significant, as pointed out in post #17, as per this sketch:

If you take the same point of aim on the downhill shot as for a horizontal shot, there is the risk of missing the heart/vitals altogether, so in order to go through the heart, the aim needs to be higher.

 

[Heym SR20]

I think that the consensus is that in ballistic terms, the effect of the downhill angle is not worth considering but the trajectory of the bullet through the body of the deer is significant, as pointed out in post #17, as per this sketch:
View attachment 405912
If you take the same point of aim on the downhill shot as for a horizontal shot, there is the risk of missing the heart/vitals altogether, so in order to go through the heart, the aim needs to be

I think that the consensus is that in ballistic terms, the effect of the downhill angle is not worth considering but the trajectory of the bullet through the body of the deer is significant, as pointed out in post #17, as per this sketch:
View attachment 405912
If you take the same point of aim on the downhill shot as for a horizontal shot, there is the risk of missing the heart/vitals altogether, so in order to go through the heart, the aim needs to be higher.

I tend to go a touch higher and aim fir the top of the heart. The blue blob in diagram below. And by aiming for this you give yourself room for error.

 

[jthyttin]

I think the reason that most mess them up is adrenaline takes over. There is a strong temptation to get up a rush in. Resist it.

All this does is raise your own adrenaline and chances are you will spook the deer and it will be flooded with adrenaline and that gives it huge ability to disappear into the next county.

Much better to stay still, reload calmly and just wait. 30 seconds will feel like a lifetime. By staying in one place you will be in the best position for a follow up shot - something to consider before opening the batting. Your heart rate and breathing should be under control.

Adrenaline rush doesn't work like that.

It takes something like 5-10 seconds for the rush. So if you're completely calm at the shot and have tendency to get excited afterwards -> only the seconds immediately after the shot are "safe".

Another option is to try'n'control the rush, this seldom works 100% but takes away majority of symptoms (loss of fine motor control and exaggerated major control). Breathing control and so on.

I guess most seasoned stalkers won't get the adrenaline rush (in a way that it really affects their actions). But there are other, more conscious symptoms that may lead to bad judgement after a botched shot.

 

[Nimrod1960]

Same has happened with me, although the deer died after a fair run. Really was not happy with myself. Gave myself a good talking to, followed by check zero, and re-study of shot placement as in posts above. I now try hard to visualise the theoretical exit point and shoot for that (if that makes sense) . I find this especially effective when taking a shortish range shot off a high seat when the angle of entry can be quite acute.

 

[gelert]

I think that the consensus is that in ballistic terms, the effect of the downhill angle is not worth considering but the trajectory of the bullet through the body of the deer is significant, as pointed out in post #17, as per this sketch:
View attachment 405912
If you take the same point of aim on the downhill shot as for a horizontal shot, there is the risk of missing the heart/vitals altogether, so in order to go through the heart, the aim needs to be higher.

Yes I understand that,but were talking 110 yrds,with I imagine a 100yrd zeroed rifle.
With 10 yards difference it's incredibly negleable to start to think of poi and compensating the trajectory etc etc.
The thought wouldn't worry me at that range whatsoever.
I'd be aiming smack on as usual.
Exactly the same if I was up a high seat.
At that distance,up or down an inch you are in the kill zone.
We seem to be overthinking and overcomplicating things massively for no reason.

 

[Sol]

Somethings are a learning moment too I was shooting in heavy crosswinds a few weeks back I shot a buck as It was walking to my left at about 140 yards as the deer dropped admittedly, not as quick as I'd like the doe It was with came back over at almost identical range also walking too my left and I shot her as well.

On investigation both shots were a lot further back than I wanted I was told the .222 was a very flat shooting rifle that wasn't majorly impacted via wind, since I had never shot in wind and was under the impression It wouldn't matter *much* I shot at my normal POA - I was humbled very quickly.

 

[25 Sharps]

I think that the consensus is that in ballistic terms, the effect of the downhill angle is not worth considering but the trajectory of the bullet through the body of the deer is significant, as pointed out in post #17, as per this sketch:
View attachment 405912
If you take the same point of aim on the downhill shot as for a horizontal shot, there is the risk of missing the heart/vitals altogether, so in order to go through the heart, the aim needs to be higher.

That shot is too low, I would generally be aiming for the top of the heart / bottom of the lungs anyway so my point of aim would be nearer your top line entry than the horizontal one. Meaning if I was shooting at circa 30 degrees at 110 yards (unlike the 45 in your picture), and I hit where I aimed, I’d still hit the heart.

On a fallow or red it’s even less of an issue as the heart is a much bigger target.

 

[gelert]

This is an interesting watch.

 

[Sitka]

I have a forest ride with 2 high seats one at each end of the ride. The ride is across the contour losing about 5 meters in height every 80 meters or so. When shooting a roe from the lower high seat facing up the slope I don't Change my poi out to 130m or so and all is fine. The first roe I shot from upper high seat was 120m down slope and habit kicked in I didn't raise my poi and took out the brisket...fortunately it was a .308 round and the hole still took out the bottom of yhe heart so no dramas, but a serious pause for reflection all the same. Now if there's a roe down from that seat my poi is nearer the shoulders just to be sure the heart is on target.

 

[Heym SR20]

Kit. The more complex, the more room for mistakes. Especially for novices IMHO the simpler the better.

Scopes and optics - these days endless sources of error. Parallax adjustment - usually on a dial or ring that can easily be moved. And often forgotten about. Yes good cheek weld and position mitigates, but wrong parallax and poor position can easily put the impact off several inches. Ditto dialling turrets. Flip up scope covers catching your hat / cap etc

God alone knows about all the electronic optics - running through menus etc etc.

Bipods - work great on nice flat ground. But when used in anger the ground is never flat and you are messing about trying to get the legs level. The mounting always seems to go loose when you need to use it. Its why I prefer shooting off my pack or a rolled up slip, etc.

Sticks. I was playing a few hundred pound set of quad sticks last week end. Little lever catches on the legs to adjust length - knocked open and leg looses its ability to hold up a rifle. Had telescoping sticks collapse on me more than once. A pair, three or four hazel wands with bungee joints cost nothing and can’t fail.

For a novice I would always encourage simplicity. Add complexity if you really need to.