What about my 410? No lead free offerings

[Conor O'Gorman]

How many dead birds have the RSPB picked up on their reserves over the last year ,investigated cause of death and proven lead poisoning as cause of death?
If they had found any number of birds and with the amount and level of monitoring of reserves they (and the general public)do they would have we’d of all heard about it or am I not mistaken?

Lots of work like this has been done on reserves and elsewhere reported on over the years, the results mostly in academic papers. If you go on Google Scholar Google Scholar and type in something like 'lead shot poisoning UK' you will see lots of papers across many bird species across all habitats from wetlands to farmland to woodland to moors. Broaden it by leaving out UK and you will see hundreds and hundreds of papers worldwide. There is no conspiracy, it's just science. The issue we have currently is what political decisions may be made on the basis of the science and that is being considered in the UK, in the EU, in USA, in Australia and so on.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

No, and I don’t think I have ever said otherwise. However it is the scope of the problem that lacks evidence, in that I agree wildfowl are at risk and hence the ban on lead shot we already have. I am not convinced there is a problem with shot falling on agriculture or pasture land. Given the many years the local clay ground has shot over, yet we see, buzzards, woodpeckers, robins, pigeons, crows, rooks. seagulls, rabbits, fox etc etc.

If the lead shot is such a problem today, then it will still be in another fifty years as even if they banned lead tomorrow it will still be on the clay ground, mind you if you walk the ground today I doubt you will see any. The majority of tye ground is managed grass.

Thanks for clarifying that. My question was in the context of the discussion in this thread on avian flu in birds in highlighting the inconsistency of accepting that birds are dying of avian flu yet questioning that birds are dying from lead shot poisoning. The science is there for both.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

If you love the 410 enough, could be worth investing in a loading set up

 

[JMH123]

I would not at this stage assume the 'lead ban' will actually happen, voluntarily or otherwise.

 

[Triggermortis]

Lots of work like this has been done on reserves and elsewhere reported on over the years, the results mostly in academic papers. If you go on Google Scholar Google Scholar and type in something like 'lead shot poisoning UK' you will see lots of papers across many bird species across all habitats from wetlands to farmland to woodland to moors. Broaden it by leaving out UK and you will see hundreds and hundreds of papers worldwide. There is no conspiracy, it's just science. The issue we have currently is what political decisions may be made on the basis of the science and that is being considered in the UK, in the EU, in USA, in Australia and so on.

With all due respect Conner, I accept there may be a vast amount of evidence readily available in the world of academic research reports unseen by the general public however how all these dead birds have not been picked up photographed and pasted all over social media by every bobble hat wearing tree hugger that ever visited an RSPB reserve I’d be interested to know?

 

[Basil H]

Mass die-offs of waterfowl caused by avian flu or by botulism are highly visible events. However, what is suggested is that lives are shortened so that dead birds are dispersed both temporally and spatially just as more "natural" deaths. If you visit a wild swan roost such as Welney and glass the birds, you can see a few individuals with green stained vents and drooping wings. They will not fly out to feed on the arable land and will shortly die. Being such large and visible birds make it easier to see.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

With all due respect Conner, I accept there may be a vast amount of evidence readily available in the world of academic research reports unseen by the general public however how all these dead birds have not been picked up photographed and pasted all over social media by every bobble hat wearing tree hugger that ever visited an RSPB reserve I’d be interested to know?

Individual dead birds tend to disappear quickly. If a birdwatcher were to stumble across a dead bird why would there be social media drama over that? The cause of death is unknown. Mass die offs tend to attract attention. That has happened due to avian flu as we know on sea bird colonies as its been very visible. Specifically on reserves managed by RSPB and WWT they have long been documenting birds, typically swans, exhibiting signs of lead poisoning arriving at its reserves and testing these post mortem which typically found lead shot as the cause. That data tends to be reported in academic papers and not social media.

Wildfowlers are more likely than your average birdwatcher to spot abnormal behaviour in birds and here is a report from a BASC article in 2020:

... our wildfowling officers were on holiday on the Tay Estuary in January and saw some greylag geese behaving abnormally. They shot one and their dogs retrieved two. They dropped them in at WWT Slimbridge and the analysis showed that their symptoms were consistent with lead poisoning. Blood and tissue analyse also confirmed this. They had ingested lead pellets and were destined to die on the Tay.

Aside from all that, the following recent research from Scotland may be of interest.

Incidence of lead ingestion in managed goose populations and the efficacy of imposed restrictions on the use of lead shot

https://pureadmin.uhi.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/38784090/120_Ibis_Geese_on_Islay_Pb_shot.pdf

On Islay, Scotland, the licensed shooting of Barnacle Geese Branta leucopsis to reduce agricultural damage has adhered to the ban on use of lead shot over Ramsar-designated wetlands legislated in Scotland in 2004. On average 2380 lead cartridges were fired annually between 2005 and 2020 outside designated wetlands, where Barnacle Geese and other wildfowl forage. From faecal samples, it is possible to infer whether birds have ingested lead and are therefore potentially suffering from lead poisoning. After sampling faeces from Barnacle Geese (n =193) and Greenland White-fronted Geese Anser albifrons flavirostris (n = 150) we found only four (1.2%) faecal samples with elevated lead levels that may be indicative of lead shot ingestion. Further post-mortem examinations (n = 102 Barnacle Geese only) and Xray of live birds (n = 293) revealed similarly low levels of shot ingestion in both species(post-mortem < 4%, and X-ray < 2%), corroborating findings from faecal sample analysis. When subsequently accounting for limited shot retention time within individuals, the proportion of each population ingesting a single lead shot over a winter was estimated ata maximum of 9.4% (Barnacle Geese) and 16.8% (White-fronted Geese). We propose that high compliance with the ban on using lead shot over wetlands because of carefully controlled shooting management on Islay has led to relatively low instantaneous ingestion rates, probably resulting in minimal lead poisoning mortality. However, ingestion was not eliminated and the potential fitness effect of chronic lead poisoning in both goose populations therefore persists, although use of lead shot in organized shooting has subsequently been discontinued. Recent European Union bans on lead shot use over wetlands may reduce lead ingestion in waterfowl if compliance rates are high, but as foraging often occurs outside wetlands (as in this study), further restrictions including use on other key foraging sites may help to further mitigate the risk of lead poisoning in waterfowl.

 

[Smellydog]

I wonder how many get chopped up by windgen fields!
Making 410's obsolete should balance that out though

 

[levigsp]

Individual dead birds tend to disappear quickly. If a birdwatcher were to stumble across a dead bird why would there be social media drama over that? The cause of death is unknown. Mass die offs tend to attract attention. That has happened due to avian flu as we know on sea bird colonies as its been very visible. Specifically on reserves managed by RSPB and WWT they have long been documenting birds, typically swans, exhibiting signs of lead poisoning arriving at its reserves and testing these post mortem which typically found lead shot as the cause. That data tends to be reported in academic papers and not social media.

Wildfowlers are more likely than your average birdwatcher to spot abnormal behaviour in birds and here is a report from a BASC article in 2020:

... our wildfowling officers were on holiday on the Tay Estuary in January and saw some greylag geese behaving abnormally. They shot one and their dogs retrieved two. They dropped them in at WWT Slimbridge and the analysis showed that their symptoms were consistent with lead poisoning. Blood and tissue analyse also confirmed this. They had ingested lead pellets and were destined to die on the Tay.

Aside from all that, the following recent research from Scotland may be of interest.

Incidence of lead ingestion in managed goose populations and the efficacy of imposed restrictions on the use of lead shot

https://pureadmin.uhi.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/38784090/120_Ibis_Geese_on_Islay_Pb_shot.pdf

On Islay, Scotland, the licensed shooting of Barnacle Geese Branta leucopsis to reduce agricultural damage has adhered to the ban on use of lead shot over Ramsar-designated wetlands legislated in Scotland in 2004. On average 2380 lead cartridges were fired annually between 2005 and 2020 outside designated wetlands, where Barnacle Geese and other wildfowl forage. From faecal samples, it is possible to infer whether birds have ingested lead and are therefore potentially suffering from lead poisoning. After sampling faeces from Barnacle Geese (n =193) and Greenland White-fronted Geese Anser albifrons flavirostris (n = 150) we found only four (1.2%) faecal samples with elevated lead levels that may be indicative of lead shot ingestion. Further post-mortem examinations (n = 102 Barnacle Geese only) and Xray of live birds (n = 293) revealed similarly low levels of shot ingestion in both species(post-mortem < 4%, and X-ray < 2%), corroborating findings from faecal sample analysis. When subsequently accounting for limited shot retention time within individuals, the proportion of each population ingesting a single lead shot over a winter was estimated ata maximum of 9.4% (Barnacle Geese) and 16.8% (White-fronted Geese). We propose that high compliance with the ban on using lead shot over wetlands because of carefully controlled shooting management on Islay has led to relatively low instantaneous ingestion rates, probably resulting in minimal lead poisoning mortality. However, ingestion was not eliminated and the potential fitness effect of chronic lead poisoning in both goose populations therefore persists, although use of lead shot in organized shooting has subsequently been discontinued. Recent European Union bans on lead shot use over wetlands may reduce lead ingestion in waterfowl if compliance rates are high, but as foraging often occurs outside wetlands (as in this study), further restrictions including use on other key foraging sites may help to further mitigate the risk of lead poisoning in waterfowl.

I do find these studies very questionable. Since the lead ban came in in Scotland over wetlands i have done some tests of my own. Each season i have opened up 300 grey geese and 100 mixed ducks and examined their gizzards, I've yet to find lead pellets! In places like Holland , they do seem to contain lead and i presume its the many tonnes that have been dumped in estuaries over the years as used ballast and shotblast.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I do find these studies very questionable. Since the lead ban came in in Scotland over wetlands i have done some tests of my own. Each season i have opened up 300 grey geese and 100 mixed ducks and examined their gizzards, I've yet to find lead pellets! In places like Holland , they do seem to contain lead and i presume its the many tonnes that have been dumped in estuaries over the years as used ballast and shotblast.

Perhaps the geese and ducks in your area do not need to eat pellets where they forage (whether lead or otherwise)?

 

[levigsp]

Perhaps the geese and ducks in your area do not need to eat pellets where they forage (whether lead or otherwise)?

All duck and geese need to collect gravel etc to break down their food. If lead is present, they cannot help it. At the time the lead ban was proposed for wildfowl across the whole UK. I organised a meeting between interested parties in the north highlands collage Thurso. At that meeting I posed this question and challenge, Show me proof of ducks and geese collected in Scotland containing lead shot in their gizzards, not written papers actual proof and the question has anyone actually seen such proof. Neither the BASC, CA, or anyone else could. When fishing weights were an issue on lakes etc there was lot of proof, 90% still attached to monofil line. Thats said everything to me. I am too old and hopefully wise to have the wool pulled over my eyes and I simply do not believe half the rubbish stated as fact in this case and a lot of other. Its a known Fact that" facts" are made up to suit agendas and nowhere is it more glaringly obvious than the proposed lead ban.

 

[hammo]

If you love the 410 enough, could be worth investing in a loading set up

Good idea, I have looked into it. A real pity the 'Lee Loadall' is not available in .410. There is a 3d printed conversion kit available, but Im still mulling it over.
Have stocked up on good old lead carts for now.

 

[Grant.N]

Why are so many people buying .410s and 28s when potentially there could be an issue in supply of cartridges.
Would it be bad idea to invest in a decent .410 at this stage?

 

[Smellydog]

Why are so many people buying .410s and 28s when potentially there could be an issue in supply of cartridges.
Would it be bad idea to invest in a decent .410 at this stage?

Plenty of cartridges available. Nothing has changed.

Maybe they have stocked up well

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

We have lead free .410 in stock (as well as 28/20/12 etc

Winchester 11gr 6s in Steel
readily available

 

[hammo]

We have lead free .410 in stock (as well as 28/20/12 etc

Winchester 11gr 6s in Steel
readily available

Price?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

£28 a box

 

[hammo]

Christ on a bike!
That's Bismuth money!

 

[Liveonce]

Christ on a bike!
That's Bismuth money!

They were never going to be cheap, the brand Winchester, the type .410 and specialty non toxic.
I bet they use a non biodegradable plastic wad to pollute the environment with also.

Still it’s the future way you know

 

[Flash G 74]

Good afternoon, do you know of any suppliers of Jocker .410 wads? I can find them in 12/20 on clay and game website but not for .410. I would love to try some with TSS but not had any luck finding a supplier.

Thanks,
Calum

Hello, I read on PW a shipment is due in UK this month ??