'When' you mess up. Not 'if'

[griff]

I think we are getting confused with POI & POA.

 

[Smellydog]

Small arm ballistics are recorded at a presumed constant of gravity acting on the perpendicular of the bullets axis.
Whether shooting up or down the constant is no longer perpendicular and thus has less of an effect resulting in a flatter trajectory.

It is however of no real consequence unless you are shooting up or down and beyond 200 yards.

 

[Smellydog]

Im going out after muntjac later this week and typically they are likely to be at much shorter ranges then I normally shoot. My 6.5 Creed is zeroed at 150 yards so I checked it on paper at 50 yards and 100 yards. Shot about 1.5 inches high at 50 and about an inch at 100 so 1/4'' that you mention sounds about right.

Have you checked the velocity?
At 50 yards you should be roughly 1/2 inch low to be zero at 100.

A 50 yard zero will also be zero at 150 yards.

 

[Alastair Boston]

Everyone makes mistakes, no question about it. The trick is minimising those errors where possible.

For most people this looks like proper practice with their equipment, as more often than not it’s us that lets ourselves down, not our kit.

In other circumstances it may be furthering our knowledge. It’s far better to learn from others mistakes than make them ourselves, so reading and listening goes a long way. CPD events such as those run by Forestry Commission / @Alastair Boston are an example of a good way to do this.

The rest of the skill is in being able to mop up the mess, which invariably falls into the above two camps too. Practice for the poor shot and getting a good follow up in, understand the procedure to follow when after a poor shot and/or following a wounded deer and mentally rehearse that, it will save some of the ‘jelly man/woman’ factor when something does go wrong.


Ben

Some good news as looking at holding one of the firearms training and safety course we have have previously held in the past,location tbc.

 

[Mike1979]

I would have thought the bullets would hit lower at 50 yards than at 100 yards!
If it’s 1.5 high at 50 and 1.0 at 100, the bullet is already in a downward trajectory, so how can it get back up to zero at 150?
Ken.

I thought about this after I put my response...and see your point.. However if the bullet is already on the downward trajectory and drops 1/2 inch between 50 and 100 yards it then drops the remaining inch to be on zero at 150 yards so it makes sense.

 

[Mike1979]

Have you checked the velocity?
At 50 yards you should be roughly 1/2 inch low to be zero at 100.

A 50 yard zero will also be zero at 150 yards.

Havent checked velocity ...just where the bullet hit the targets at the ranges stated. Might have to do a bit more target practice to see as I thought it was slightly odd but I am not great when it comes to the theory behind ballistics hence why I prefer shooting the rifle and seeing where the bullet strikes . The first fallow I shot with this rifle came out 30 yards from me last Sep and the bullet was in the right place so I am probably overthinking this

 

[Smellydog]

I'm wondering if you have some inclined mounts and have them the wrong way around or something...

 

[Mike1979]

I'm wondering if you have some inclined mounts and have them the wrong way around or something...

Mounts are Tier 1 Monomounts 0 MOA so dont think its that

I ll put a few rounds through on paper again when I get a chance and also try and get the data for the ammo ...I am probaly having a senior moment

 

[kenbro]

I'm wondering if you have some inclined mounts and have them the wrong way around or something...

Mounts are Tier 1 Monomounts 0 MOA so dont think its that

I ll put a few rounds through on paper again when I get a chance and also try and get the data for the ammo ...I am probaly having a senior moment

Without knowing your scope height over bore and your starting velocity it’s not easy to be precise.
As Smellydog says, for a 150 zero you should be virtually (Tad high if anything) spot one at 50 yards and around 3/4” to 1” high at 100.
Cheers, Ken.
Ps. It was the 1 1/2” high at 50 started me thinking.

 

[Mike1979]

Without knowing your scope height over bore and your starting velocity it’s not easy to be precise.
As Smellydog says, for a 150 zero you should be virtually (Tad high if anything) spot one at 50 yards and around 3/4” to 1” high at 100.
Cheers, Ken.
Ps. It was the 1 1/2” high at 50 started me thinking.

Cheers for the comments

 

[Hazlett]

Could you redraw the lines aiming for the top of the heart and at 30 degrees? Which is the shot in question (assumed aim point).

Then you would see that at that range and angle, you’d still hit the heart. The picture is exaggerated to make the point.

To put it into perspective, for your bullet to hit the deer at 45 degrees as the diagram, say from a high seat rail height of 3.6 metres, on flat ground the deer would have to be around 3-4 metres in front of you…..

Aw man!

I drew it like that because I thought it would make everyone smile to see the bottom line heading off on a tangent, just like @VSS was accused of.

 

[Selous]

Out of interest, what would be the correct adjustment of aim for a 30° downhill slope at 110 yards?

Plugging the numbers into my ballistic calculator the 30 degree downhill angle makes no significant difference at 110m compared to a shot on flat ground at 110m.
Honest post and I commend the OP for highlighting it but the downhill angle is unlikely to be the cause of the poor shot. If the shot were made at 300m the 30 degree angle would have made 3 clicks difference or 9cm at 300m

 

[User00056]

Honest post and I commend the OP for highlighting it but the downhill angle is unlikely to be the cause of the poor shot

I made no claim to it being so

 

[25 Sharps]

I made no claim to it being so

Why mention it if you don’t consider it a contributory factor?

In fact from your post you made it sound a major factor….

“What I completely failed to consider was that the shot was downhill at around a 30-degree slope. I made the rookie error of shooting to my usual point of aim and made a bad shot.”

 

[chaz243]

Thinking I will test my zero ready for some short range stuff tomorrow morning from a temp high seat for an area cull in East Sussex ...short ranges catch me out....interesting maths on the above .... proper trigonometry..

 

[zambezi]

The following link gives an idea of how to adjust poa depending on your view of the deer:

https://thedeerinitiative.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/RHMC0711_Shot-Placement_Guide_Deer_July-2023_V4.pdf#page=4

 

[Sol]

Apologies to kick the thread up but there we go.... it happened, earlier in the day I shot a young buck and hut high though the deer died almost instantaneously regardless of what happened, In hindsight I had shot the deer from at maybe 60 meters so It made sense

We drove down and noticed the malformed buck that we seen earlier was still out feeding incredibly close to the road so we decided to take the shot, parked up and used the vehicle as a rest I do not know why but I decided to take the shot low I think in my head I wanted to go more for the traditional "Armpit" shot when In all reality why should I fix what wasn't broken? I have always shot deer high directly on the shoulder on my intended shots at least I think for a mostly novice person Its a safe reasonble shot on roe, regardless due to whatever happened I clearly hut too low or and stupid me went up there with a no knife and no rifle without realising the deer was injured.

As much as it sucked the deer was still lung shot but due to the ground It wasn't visible from the car (where the person was with the rifle) and It wasn't a quick "Oh ****" and run back to the vehicle the time they had made there way up here the deer had expired, moors are unforgiving sometimes on that aspect.

Shot at 17:33, got to the shot site at 17:37(ish) and deer and the last photo timestamped was after the gralloch at 17:46 , so the deer was alive for probably about 10 minutes after the shot..... not my best shooting It certainly wasnt a pleasant sight to watch an animal struggle up close.
[[

 

[25 Sharps]

Apologies to kick the thread up but there we go.... it happened, earlier in the day I shot a young buck and hut high though the deer died almost instantaneously regardless of what happened, In hindsight I had shot the deer from at maybe 60 meters so It made sense

We drove down and noticed the malformed buck that we seen earlier was still out feeding incredibly close to the road so we decided to take the shot, parked up and used the vehicle as a rest I do not know why but I decided to take the shot low I think in my head I wanted to go more for the traditional "Armpit" shot when In all reality why should I fix what wasn't broken? I have always shot deer high directly on the shoulder on my intended shots at least I think for a mostly novice person Its a safe reasonble shot on roe, regardless due to whatever happened I clearly hut too low or and stupid me went up there with a no knife and no rifle without realising the deer was injured.

As much as it sucked the deer was still lung shot but due to the ground It wasn't visible from the car (where the person was with the rifle) and It wasn't a quick "Oh ****" and run back to the vehicle the time they had made there way up here the deer had expired, moors are unforgiving sometimes on that aspect.

Shot at 17:33, got to the shot site at 17:37(ish) and deer and the last photo timestamped was after the gralloch at 17:46 , so the deer was alive for probably about 10 minutes after the shot..... not my best shooting It certainly wasnt a pleasant sight to watch an animal struggle up close.
View attachment 408112[[

When you say armpit, how low did you aim? Armpit to me sound like the spot where the skin goes from chest to leg, this sounds too low at only about a quarter up the body?

If you were aiming for the armpit and shot too low, how did you hit a lung?

Conversely shot this fellow last week, don’t get fallow often but spotted 4 whilst out foxing so went back the next morning. I picked them up whilst I was halfway up a hill and they were at the bottom on the flat, just looked on the OS map and I was 20m + above the animal. Aimed for my normal top of the heart shot, took the top of the heart and bottom of one lung. Very much a downhill shot, no issues with placement.

 

[HonestJohn]

I shot 2 reds through the stomachs at 100 yards yesterday morning. 1st off sticks, second 10 mins later off bipod. New(ish) Alpex scope and POA looked good on playback but both bullets went through stomachs and diaphragms (only discovered on gralloch). All I can think is that zero has shifted but it's too wet and windy out there to check today. Very p'd off!

Go back to a proper scope

 

[75]

Go back to a proper scope

It's not the scope. There's another thread on bullet deflections which I think you posted in.