Effectiveness of lead free ammunition

243 80gr TTSX - doe shot at c60 yards - ran 50 yards before expiring.

Dinky little exit hole.

Stepped up since to 120gr Sako Blades in 6.5CM - fantastic round - far more knock down authority over the 80gr.

View attachment 397441
I appreciate that but as said - no two deer shot in the same place. I am sure the .243 TTSX could have dropped a fallow/given a larger exit if shot in a different place. You've got more oomph with the 6.5cm though, I am using Hornady CX 120gr to good effect.
 
243 80gr TTSX - doe shot at c60 yards - ran 50 yards before expiring.

Dinky little exit hole.

Stepped up since to 120gr Sako Blades in 6.5CM - fantastic round - far more knock down authority over the 80gr.

View attachment 397441
I appreciate that but as said - no two deer shot in the same place. I am sure the .243 TTSX could have dropped a fallow/given a larger exit if shot in a different place. You've got more oomph with the 6.5cm though, I am using Hornady CX 120gr to good effect.
Thank you pal
Nice app on their site where you can check the energy and speed of each calibre 0ver various distances

 
Ah different to how you presented it. Was the test ammo always of the same make and calibre?
4 calibres, 2 bullet designs, all our brand (SRA) limited testing was done with other bullet designs as they were either not accurate enough or did not reliably expand. For chest shooting at considerate ranges the Nielson sonic hunt bullets excelled over all others. Not surprising considering the original application of that bullet design (expansion at low velocity)
 
Here is another source of bullets.

They took over from Lutz Möller after he died in a glider/microlight accident on 06.06.2020, he was the patent holder for brass bullets in Germany. Here is his old website.

 
I suspect it depends what the stalker wants. Lots of comments (here and elsewhere) about "drops them just the same" as lead does. Depends on what the individual stalkers "just the same" means.

Personally I like to drop them on the spot if i can. That seems to mean high shoulder with copper. A raking shot forward behind the shoulder blade used to be very effective with lead, doesn't seem to cut if with copper. TBH I have not shot enough with copper to draw a solid conclusion. I have decided though that if the shot is a bit off they defo run a lot further than with lead. So for me I need to be a bit more precise to be sure to put it in the shoulder, but if you are used to them running a bit with a well placed shot then I guess it isn't much different. I am shooting Sika mainly and do not want them stepping into the woods.

One thing is apparent though, given the bullet does not break up they can come out the deer at some funny places so I am much more picky about shooting animals that have others near them.
 
I suspect it depends what the stalker wants. Lots of comments (here and elsewhere) about "drops them just the same" as lead does. Depends on what the individual stalkers "just the same" means.

Personally I like to drop them on the spot if i can. That seems to mean high shoulder with copper. A raking shot forward behind the shoulder blade used to be very effective with lead, doesn't seem to cut if with copper. TBH I have not shot enough with copper to draw a solid conclusion. I have decided though that if the shot is a bit off they defo run a lot further than with lead. So for me I need to be a bit more precise to be sure to put it in the shoulder, but if you are used to them running a bit with a well placed shot then I guess it isn't much different. I am shooting Sika mainly and do not want them stepping into the woods.

One thing is apparent though, given the bullet does not break up they can come out the deer at some funny places so I am much more picky about shooting animals that have others near them.
I have shot Sika, Red and Roe with racking shots with copper bullets, both quartering away and quartering towards me. They have either dropped on the spot or gone less than ten yards.

Mostly I go up the foreleg half way up the body. If you do go through the shoulder meat you loose a burger or two worth of meat.

Most memorable was a large Sika / Red hybrid. He came storming out of the brush on a sika whilst, stomping about and cross. Shot him at about 70m. He went straight down in the bracken. I panicked when I went up to the shot site - he had collapsed into a drainage ditch hidden under the bracken abd was hidden from view. RWS HIT bullet from 7x65R.
 
I use N550 and my best grouping was around 3091fps. To be honest I could have gone lower as all seemed to group ok but wanted to keep it over 3000fps. I’m really impressed with them and that’s 22inch Barrel. I can drop you my findings in PM is you need a start point
 
The 148gr Yew Tree TLR out of a .300WM is impressive! Not only flat shooting but effective. I don’t have a massive sample size to base my findings on but the last roe doe I shot with one had a minuscule entry hole (I had to search to find it) but a fist size exit through the sternum (was angled away so the bullet slipped through the ribs behind the shoulder and then out the front). Due to the shot placement there wasn’t much damage, just a bit off the foreleg.
 
I made the switch to copper a few years ago due to landowners & game dealers both requesting that I use "non-toxic" ammunition - otherwise I wouldn't have made the switch.
I had settled on Super Hammerheads as my go-to bullets/ammo and absolutely loved them, I didn't want to use anything else and if the push to copper hadn't made me switch I suppose I'd still be using nothing else
But, I've had no trouble with copper bullets since I switched to them, no apparent signs of lack of expansion, no runners - yet. I've used Sako Blade, S&B Blue, Nosler E-tip and now Hornady CX, all of which are described as expanding copper-based projectiles. The only real difficulties with copper bullets were lack of choice, poor availability & high price
Those issues aside they all seem to do exactly what I need them to do to deer

Adding to my personal experience, and it is therefore hearsay, I had an interesting (well, to me anyway) discussion while I was shooting on an estate which I visit each year with a group of friends.
There's an excellent keeper there who is responsible for organising deer culls etc. I was asked which ammo I was using and they were interested when I said that it was Hornady Outfitter - I don't think they were familiar with that ammo. When asked I confirmed that it was loaded with what Hornady described as a copper bullet "designed to ensure reliable expansion". The keeper then said they would be interested to see the results if I got a shot at anything.
Fortunately I did manage to get a couple and the results seemed to impress the keeper
I asked why the concern and was told that a group of Danes had been on the estate, some of them using Sako Blade & the others using RWS Evo Green
Apparently there was a marked difference in the results achieved between the two groups
Those using Sako Blade had consistently good results; humane kills, no runners, clean carcasses = happy keepers & hunters and no need to get the dogs out
Those using The RWS Evo Green had bad shot after bad shot, some wounded deer (blamed on poor penetration on initial shot), too many runners and ruined carcasses = very tired dogs and unhappy hunters/keepers
The results with fragmenting ammo on larger deer were reported as "tolerable"
But smaller deer, such as Muntjac & Chinese Water Deer, all too often suffered so much damage that the whole carcass was ruined.
The keeper said that the results with the fragmenting bullets were so bad that they were informed/ordered NOT to plan to use that ammo on their trip next year
I realise that's the keeper's/estate's take on things - but I know them & trust them so I see no reason for me to doubt what they told me
Plus it tallies with what other people have told me about fragmenting copper ammo

I find it ironic that THE big argument against copper bullets used to be lack of expansion resulting in the dreaded "pencilling through" & accusations of being "too hard for British deer". Now we have bullets which might be too frangible!
Just like lead-based bullets eh?
 
I only moved to copper with the purchase of a new rifle this season. Started off with s&b bluetips and now using wapiti, both in 6.5cm. I was very nervous about pencilling and runners to start with but both brands seem to work effectively on fallow of all sizes. I usually head or neck shoot but have used them for chest shots too with success.
 
I made the switch to copper a few years ago due to landowners & game dealers both requesting that I use "non-toxic" ammunition - otherwise I wouldn't have made the switch.
I had settled on Super Hammerheads as my go-to bullets/ammo and absolutely loved them, I didn't want to use anything else and if the push to copper hadn't made me switch I suppose I'd still be using nothing else
But, I've had no trouble with copper bullets since I switched to them, no apparent signs of lack of expansion, no runners - yet. I've used Sako Blade, S&B Blue, Nosler E-tip and now Hornady CX, all of which are described as expanding copper-based projectiles. The only real difficulties with copper bullets were lack of choice, poor availability & high price
Those issues aside they all seem to do exactly what I need them to do to deer

Adding to my personal experience, and it is therefore hearsay, I had an interesting (well, to me anyway) discussion while I was shooting on an estate which I visit each year with a group of friends.
There's an excellent keeper there who is responsible for organising deer culls etc. I was asked which ammo I was using and they were interested when I said that it was Hornady Outfitter - I don't think they were familiar with that ammo. When asked I confirmed that it was loaded with what Hornady described as a copper bullet "designed to ensure reliable expansion". The keeper then said they would be interested to see the results if I got a shot at anything.
Fortunately I did manage to get a couple and the results seemed to impress the keeper
I asked why the concern and was told that a group of Danes had been on the estate, some of them using Sako Blade & the others using RWS Evo Green
Apparently there was a marked difference in the results achieved between the two groups
Those using Sako Blade had consistently good results; humane kills, no runners, clean carcasses = happy keepers & hunters and no need to get the dogs out
Those using The RWS Evo Green had bad shot after bad shot, some wounded deer (blamed on poor penetration on initial shot), too many runners and ruined carcasses = very tired dogs and unhappy hunters/keepers
The results with fragmenting ammo on larger deer were reported as "tolerable"
But smaller deer, such as Muntjac & Chinese Water Deer, all too often suffered so much damage that the whole carcass was ruined.
The keeper said that the results with the fragmenting bullets were so bad that they were informed/ordered NOT to plan to use that ammo on their trip next year
I realise that's the keeper's/estate's take on things - but I know them & trust them so I see no reason for me to doubt what they told me
Plus it tallies with what other people have told me about fragmenting copper ammo

I find it ironic that THE big argument against copper bullets used to be lack of expansion resulting in the dreaded "pencilling through" & accusations of being "too hard for British deer". Now we have bullets which might be too frangible!
Just like lead-based bullets eh?
Can I ask where you are shooting them. Heart and lung or high shoulder or neck/ head. The recommendation is for high shoulder for copper but I get ear ache from game dealer for shoulders been ruined.
 
Can I ask where you are shooting them. Heart and lung or high shoulder or neck/ head. The recommendation is for high shoulder for copper but I get ear ache from game dealer for shoulders been ruined.
Above the front legs about half way up the body or "doing the splits" ie split the front legs & split the body
It'll hit them just above the heart, definitely get both lungs but shouldn't ruin the shoulders unless you hit just a bit too far forward
If I'm close enough/steady enough/have enough time I'll take head and/or neck shots but avoid doing so unless I'm completely confident that I'll make the shot
 
Above the front legs about half way up the body or "doing the splits" ie split the front legs & split the body
It'll hit them just above the heart, definitely get both lungs but shouldn't ruin the shoulders unless you hit just a bit too far forward
If I'm close enough/steady enough/have enough time I'll take head and/or neck shots but avoid doing so unless I'm completely confident that I'll make the shot
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Sako Powerhead Blade 162gn .308W - job done 👍
 
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