Lead update.

[Smellydog]

the Tobacco industry would have claimed the same. Indeed they claimed that smoking was beneficial.

You should really ask the question about how many BASC members are dying or suffering from any of the conditions associated with lead exposure and compare this to the general population.

I think you are missing the point.

If smoking is a freedom of choice thing. As long as it doesn't others.
So , as lead shot doesn't kill as many as smoking or create as much illness as smoking I would like the same freedom of choice.

Retrospectively the removal of freedom of choice in this topic will and is migrating into other aspects of life. All in the name of the greater good.
You and many others might be ok with that new world order. Unfortunately, I'm not.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I think you are missing the point.

If smoking is a freedom of choice thing. As long as it doesn't others.
So , as lead shot doesn't kill as many as smoking or create as much illness as smoking I would like the same freedom of choice.

Retrospectively the removal of freedom of choice in this topic will and is migrating into other aspects of life. All in the name of the greater good.
You and many others might be ok with that new world order. Unfortunately, I'm not.

Now there is something we can agree on, it is down to personal choice, hence the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting which is the basis for BASC opposing HSE proposed restrictions on lead shot for live quarry shooting. But here is the rub - that voluntary transition is underpinned by evidence of lead shot ingestion by many species of birds - and of course the birds don't get a choice in this - they are eating lead shot as grit or seeds - and it matters not what gun that lead shot came from. Some of that lead shot will find its way into some birds gizzards with lethal and sub-lethal impacts. The science is clear on this, no amount of deflection and whataboutery will change that fact, and it is an animal welfare issue that more and more shooters are taking ownership of. And for now moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting is indeed a personal choice - thanks to BASC.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

There are plenty of studies looking at consumption lead shot game and health problems in populations such as Native Americans.

There are also studies carried out showing the bioavailability of lead from consumption of lead shot venison in pigs - which a widely used surrogate for humans in medical studies.

The principal reason there is no data on lead shot game and British hunters is because nobody has looked. It would be a simple enough study to do. The NHS has a flag on every Shotgun and Firearms owner and you could easily look at disease prevalence against the wider population.

There were plenty of studies looking at lead exposure by soldiers and ammunition workers as far back as the turn of the last century. These were quietly put to one side so as not to disturb the war effort.

And every box of ammunition, whether its rifle or shotgun has warnings about lead exposure. Boxes of cigarettes have similar warnings. Whilst cigarettes are not banned, there is a ban on smoking anywhere where your smoke can affect others in a public place.

Those studies for British hunters may well arise in due course. As regards personal consumption of lead shot game that is a personal choice. Awareness is growing in the UK and USA in particular of the risks around high consumption of lead shot game for children, pregnant women and women hoping to conceive and the FSA has issued advice Lead-shot game. And as regards lead shot game going into the food chain that is down to market forces. As things stand there is no lead ban and there is a voluntary move away from using lead shot for live quarry shooting.

 

[Heym SR20]

Now there is something we can agree on, it is down to personal choice, hence the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting which is the basis for BASC opposing HSE proposed restrictions on lead shot for live quarry shooting. But here is the rub - that voluntary transition is underpinned by evidence of lead shot ingestion by many species of birds - and of course the birds don't get a choice in this - they are eating lead shot as grit or seeds - and it matters not what gun that lead shot came from. Some of that lead shot will find its way into some birds gizzards with lethal and sub-lethal impacts. The science is clear on this, no amount of deflection and whataboutery will change that fact, and it is an animal welfare issue that more and more shooters are taking ownership of. And for now moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting is indeed a personal choice - thanks to BASC.

I would add that lead can also be ingested by predators or carrion eaters when they consume animals or birds, or the remains (gralloch etc) that have been shot with lead. Plenty of studies have demonstrated this. Whilst we try to ensure that all birds shot end up in the bag, there are inevitably birds that cannot be found / recovered and that end up in the wildlife food chain. A red kite, buzzard, peregrine or eagle etc will be unable to pick out pellets from the breast of a shot pheasant, duck or gralloch of a deer.

 

[jall55]

so from google

Globally, tobacco use causes the death of over 8 million people each year, with more than 7 million deaths resulting from direct tobacco use and around 1.2 million from exposure to secondhand smoke. That translates to roughly 22,000 deaths per day

From lead by eating game

roughly 0

yet HSE chooses lead ammunition to ban.

Have a look at alcohol - sugar - preservatives - salt - The numbers are scary

 

[jall55]

I would add that lead can also be ingested by predators or carrion eaters when they consume animals or birds, or the remains (gralloch etc) that have been shot with lead. Plenty of studies have demonstrated this. Whilst we try to ensure that all birds shot end up in the bag, there are inevitably birds that cannot be found / recovered and that end up in the wildlife food chain. A red kite, buzzard, peregrine or eagle etc will be unable to pick out pellets from the breast of a shot pheasant, duck or gralloch of a deer.

I hear this lots and of course im sure its true - thats why falconers wont use lead shot birds - BUT on so many shooting estates - our shoot included - why are we thronged with raptors ?
Not so many years ago the lead shot carcasses of game birds and pigeons were put out for foxes and inevitably scavenged - yet no raptors were found dead and numbers continued to rise

 

[Heym SR20]

I hear this lots and of course im sure its true - thats why falconers wont use lead shot birds - BUT on so many shooting estates - our shoot included - why are we thronged with raptors ?
Not so many years ago the lead shot carcasses of game birds and pigeons were put out for foxes and inevitably scavenged - yet no raptors were found dead and numbers continued to rise

Because nature has an insatiable appetite for protein. Any dead bird will quickly be eaten by something else. Sick birds and animals tend to take themselves off into deep cover as protection against predators and that that’s where they will die. If they are not quickly consumed by something bigger, bugs and beetles quickly take over. I shot a fox a few years ago and stuck it under a gorse bush. I kept an eye on it and ten days later it had been pretty much taken underground by carrion eating beetles and flies.

You might also go and read the studies by Cambridge University and others on the links between raptor deaths and lead shot game, and the high levels of lead found in the livers of dead raptors found in the wild.

 

[jall55]

Because nature has an insatiable appetite for protein. Any dead bird will quickly be eaten by something else. Sick birds and animals tend to take themselves off into deep cover as protection against predators and that that’s where they will die. If they are not quickly consumed by something bigger, bugs and beetles quickly take over. I shot a fox a few years ago and stuck it under a gorse bush. I kept an eye on it and ten days later it had been pretty much taken underground by carrion eating beetles and flies.

You might also go and read the studies by Cambridge University and others on the links between raptor deaths and lead shot game, and the high levels of lead found in the livers of dead raptors found in the wild.

Again i really dont believe so much of this tbh
I bait - a lot for foxes - so many "pieces" of each carcasses are still visible and locatable

I also spend lots of time picking any birds missed on shoot days and have not been finding any of these huge numbers of birds poisoned
I have 4 spaniels se we do cover lots and lots of the ground - on shoot days we may have 6/7 pickers up with 2/3 dogs each and up to 18 beaters - again we are not picking up dead raptors / dead duck / geese / moorhen or coot ... never

 

[Liveonce]

. But here is the rub - that voluntary transition is underpinned by evidence of lead shot ingestion by many species of birds - and of course the birds don't get a choice in this - they are eating lead shot as grit or seeds - and it matters not what gun that lead shot came from.

unless it’s an olympic athlete gun as apparently their lead shot is not the same as any other.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

unless it’s an olympic athlete gun as apparently their lead shot is not the same as any other.

That's not for live quarry though is it.

 

[Smellydog]

 

[jall55]

That's not for live quarry though is it.

No - buts the crazy thing - the lead still goes into the environment to be picked up by anything

 

[Liveonce]

That's not for live quarry though is it.

No, so as birds know it’s a clay ground, then clay grounds will be exempt from the ban for all who use them then, as obviously no risk in continuing to use lead shot on such ground.

I don’t currently hear BASC singing from the roof tops to ban lead shot only for live quarry shooting and no other use.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

No - buts the crazy thing - the lead still goes into the environment to be picked up by anything

Indeed. BASC has opposed the HSE proposals to restrict the use of lead shot on clay grounds. The main HSE argument is for enforcement reasons and the HSE proposed exemption for current and prospective Olympic and Paralympic athletes would be subject to various criteria so that is context for the exemption.

This is from BASC's response to the final HSE consultation: "The restrictions for lead shot for target shooting are not based upon the impacts but an attempt to stop lead ammunition that could be used for clay shooting being also used for live quarry shooting. BASC believes that any proposed restrictions for lead shot should be aimed at controlling the risks, rather than risk elimination. The evidence for lead shot for target shooting is theoretical and inconclusive, and any restrictions based on this would be deemed as over precautionary".

If the EC regulations come into force as drafted there would be a ban on lead shot for clay shooting after 15 years in EU countries, and in Northern Ireland. I don't think there is any exemption to that for for current and prospective Olympic and Paralympic athletes but could be wrong. To be allowed to continue using lead shot on clay grounds before that ban, clay grounds would need to implement proposed risk management measures that will be comprehensive and costly and very few clay grounds currently meet the criteria. Clay grounds would have to get the measures in place before the regulations took effect, so maybe 6 months or a year depending on what is decided between the regulations been approved and taking effect.

What might happen in England, Wales and Scotland for the use of lead shot for live quarry and target shooting is unknown currently as Defra has not yet responded to the HSE recommendations.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

No, so as birds know it’s a clay ground, then clay grounds will be exempt from the ban for all who use them then, as obviously no risk in continuing to use lead shot on such ground.

I don’t currently hear BASC singing from the roof tops to ban lead shot only for live quarry shooting and no other use.

BASC has been opposing any further restrictions on lead ammunition for various reasons since the HSE review began, with several large campaigns encouraging people to respond to the call for evidence and two consultations. As regards lead shot, the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting is the basis for BASC opposing HSE proposed restrictions on lead shot for live quarry shooting. That has nothing to do with using lead shot on clay grounds and the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting continues. BASC staff continue to run events and do shoot visits and BASC members and shoots are spreading the word as they move away from lead shot for live quarry.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I hear this lots and of course im sure its true - thats why falconers wont use lead shot birds - BUT on so many shooting estates - our shoot included - why are we thronged with raptors ?
Not so many years ago the lead shot carcasses of game birds and pigeons were put out for foxes and inevitably scavenged - yet no raptors were found dead and numbers continued to rise

That is because it will likely be a few percent of birds of prey impacted - and mostly sub-lethal impacts.

From BASC's response to the final HSE consultation:

7.5 Mortality and sub-lethal effects from secondary exposure – birds.

As per BASC’s 2022 consultation response to the HSE, there is no GB evidence which provides a causal link between lead shot and lead poisoning resulting in mortality or sublethal effects on predatory or scavenging species. BASC considers that the HSE has not appropriately addressed the uncertainties in the evidence base from which it has drawn conclusions to justify restrictions. The study by Pain et al. (1995) found a range of liver lead concentrations in 16 species ofraptors in the UK. The study did not attempt to demonstrate analytically that lead shot wasthe cause of elevated liver lead concentrations.

Pain et al. (2007) analysis of food pellets from Red Kite roosts provided no confirmatory evidence of lead shot being present in samples. “Radiographs showed that 29 of 264(11%) contained radio-dense material, not verified but presumed to be mainly shot or shot fragments. Sixteen pellets were dissected, six of which (37.2%) contained 1 to 3 objects regarded as lead shot”. The lack of confirmatory evidence renders the study speculatory.

Of the further studies referenced by the HSE covering 16 species of raptors, none offer a definitive causal link between mortality or acute poisoning from lead shot. Of the 22 studies of raptors cited by the HSE, only five studies offer any suggestion of the source of lead where elevated levels were detected. The source is described by the HSE as “suggested ingestion of ammunition” The HSE does not go on to address this uncertainty.

Of the 16 raptor species studied, only three species - Common Buzzard, Peregrine Falcon and Red Kite - were found to exhibit lead levels above clinical thresholds. Six other species were recorded with liver concentrations of lead above sub-clinical thresholds, but in any sample <10% exhibited such concentrations. The HSE suggests that a secondary exposure pathway exists to predatory and scavenging birds from lead shot and rifle ammunition used for ‘live quarry shooting’.

The evidence supports the likelihood of lead shot being dispersed in carcasses or discarded offal. Given that 97% of game meat goes into the food chain (PACEC, 2014) there is limited scope for predatory and scavenging species to be exposed via this potential exposure pathway.

Best practice guidance for pest mammal and pest bird species which are not placed into the human food chain (e.g., fox, carrion crow) is to dispose via a certified waste carrier, incinerate or leave in a discrete location away from view of the public. Again, this often means disposal in locations of dense cover that would be unavailable to raptor species or other scavenging birds further reducing any potential secondary pathway.

There is no conclusive evidence which links lead ammunition as a cause of lead poisoning via secondary exposure, despite a theoretical pathway existing. Even where isotope analysis of detected lead is undertaken (Walker et al., 2012 and Taggart et al., 2020) it is inconclusive as to the source of the lead. This is due to overlaps with lead isotopes from coal in the Walker et al. (2012) study which reports: “There was no clear evidence that birds with the higher residues (those with the top 25 percentile of total liver Pb concentrations) in either species had isotope signatures that particularly resembled that of shot or ammunition” and “There was also some overlap with the isotope signature for coal and for Pb shot, but the signatures in the birds were distinct from that of petrol”

Whilst the Taggart et al. (2020) study is most comprehensive UK study of lead exposure to raptors, it is not conclusive of the source of elevated lead levels in liver and bone. Only a small percentage of studied birds had elevated levels of lead (2.7% in liver and 4% in bone). The abstract of the study states: “Hence, most of the Pb acquired by Eurasian buzzards which have liver concentrations likely to be associated with lethal and sublethal effects is probably obtained when they prey upon or scavenge gamebirds and mammals shot using Pb shotgun pellets.” Therefore, the HSE has not provided any analytical or observational evidence to link reports of birds with levels of lead above background concentrations to lead in ammunition.

The submissions of the ‘International Shooting Federation of Hunting Sport Weapons'(FITASC) to the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA) review of lead ammunition (Palinkas,2020) discusses the behaviour of lead in soil and its relative stability, evidencing limitedmobility of lead in soils where pH is >6.5. This report offers evidence that lead shot, even atsites with high use, can be adequately managed

Some conclusions reached by the HSE are supported by evidence provided from modelling studies (Green et al., 2022 and Meyer et al., 2016). Such studies are modelled on a series of assumptions, and whilst they demonstrate a theoretical impact of lead poisoning, they do not identify the source of lead as being from gunshot. BASC considers that such models are unsafe to support proposals for regulatory action.

Finally, the HSE has not provided any empirical evidence in Great Britain to suggest negative impacts on individual terrestrial birds or at species population level. BASC has concluded that highly restrictive regulation, based on the theoretical likelihood of secondary exposure to lead ammunition, is disproportionate to the risk. The HSE has identified significant uncertainty in its conclusion around secondary poisoning of birds but has not addressed this within its Annex 15 opinion document.

Currently, the proposed restrictions appear to be based on the existence of theoretical pathways of exposure rather than the actual impact because of the exposure. BASC contends that any restriction on this basis is currently not justified and is therefore unnecessary and disproportionate. If restrictions underpinned by secondary poisoning risk are to be implemented, this would be deemed an over-precautionary measure.

 

[Liveonce]

i ask via a freedom of information request to the HSE about responses they received during the consultation process, have received the following reply.
Conclude what you like from it, obviously given the number of individuals that own firearms, number of shooting clubs and businesses it was quite low.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

i ask via a freedom of information request to the HSE about responses they received during the consultation process, have received the following reply.
Conclude what you like from it, obviously given the number of individuals that own firearms, number of shooting clubs and businesses it was quite low.
View attachment 413493

View attachment 413492

Thanks for sharing that. The glass half empty view is that this is another example of apathy in our community. The glass half full view is that this response level was massive relative to the same two consultations that took place during the European Chemicals Agency review of lead ammunition, which the HSE review was mirrored on.