ASl sniper.177
Well-Known Member
P.s,annealing will give the best gains in consistent group sizes over time if you reload your cases a lot.
After annealing, neck or full size?
- Thread starter Howa
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Tralle
Well-Known Member
Just out of curiosity, do you wet tumble?I have come to the conclusion, that a lot depends on the dies you're using, because I really struggle with neck tension consistency on some cartridges.
I've started switching to neck bushing dies on cartridges where I'm more likely to be shooting further, or shooting smaller targets, such as vermin, and also annealing every time. Cartridges like my 9.3's I won't spend as much time on, as "rifle accuracy" is the least of my problems
This is pretty new for me, so I'll have to keep an eye on shoulder/case length, and bump the shoulder as required.
Yes with stainless pins. Love it, far better results than ultrasonic & dry tumbling,
Tralle
Well-Known Member
I my experience there is something with wet tumbling and annealing that can cause neck tension to go crazy.
interesting you say that, because in the last couple of days, I deprimed a bunch of .223, & 6.5x47 cases.
They came out of tumbler very clean and shiny.
Ran the 223’s through the AMP, and they looked as expected, with the discolouration around the neck.
The 6.5x47 came out of the annealer looking identical to the way they started
Checked the AMP web site, and they mention that this is common if the brass is very clean and shiny, but so long as it got very hot, the process has worked.
I’ve stopped wet tumbling… I think (personal theory only) that it effectively peens the brass surface and can cause inconsistency…..
It also was causing micro rolling of the case neck and some deformation that needed expanding with a mandrel, then sizing then mandrel again (I mandrel size) so was just adding extra work hardening steps…
I’ve just stopped cleaning brass altogether, it’s pretty much just for show… a lot of top shooters Murdica, Cortina etc. not bothering to clean either.
ASl sniper.177
Well-Known Member
I fully agree with not over cleaning brass. I only ever sonic clean brass. Anything else is purely cosmetic. If you have the right cleaning solution when sonic cleaning,the brass is clean inside and out. The main thing when cleaning brass,is to remove carbon within the case,that's what can cause barrel wear if you don't clean your brass when sizing. If you Don't believe me,reload the same brass without cleaning after sizing for 3-5 reloads. Then tap the cases on a hard surface. You will then see the amount of carbon that comes out of the case. Annealing is a good thing,one of the best things you can do if you reload a lot. Once annealed,normal cleaning shouldn't affect neck tension. Wet media may have a peening affect on neck tension,but,as I've not used it,I cannot say that for certain.
I guess wet tumbling could have a peening effect, work hardening the surface of the brass, but annealing would counteract that in theory as you say. It would be interesting to see how the same brass behaved with half of it being wet tumbled then annealed and half of it being ultrasonically cleaned, then annealed.
If I only had an annealer I would be happy to do this experiment.
I only need to find the dirtiest 6.5x47 case I have, and just anneal it, and see what happens. I'll have a look tomorrow.
Not sure I get your methodology on that - the point of annealing (correctly) is to take the temperature of the brass to a point where it anneals the brass to soft, annealed state. Therefore even if SSM peens or work hardens (which I’m not sure it does - there’s not enough or even any work going into the brass for that to happen) then annealing will return it to the same state as a case that’s been cleaned another way. You’d really need to do a hardness check on the bases to determine work hardening effects.
It appears some studies have been done that suggest tumbling can introduce a very small amount of work hardening (5-10 HV increase, mostly at the neck), but proper annealing at 650°F-750°F—fully removes it. The heat recrystallizes the brass, erasing all surface stress from tumbling, firing, or resizing, dropping hardness back to 80-100 HV. As long as you hit the annealing temp, tumbling’s effects are completely undone.
I'm struggling to believe that tiny SS pins, suspended in water, can impact the cases to the extent they cause an issue, there would be a higher impact from "case to case" ?
I shoot a number of different cartridges, use the same procedure for each, and only the 6.5x47 reacted differently to annealing.
All of my case prep', apart from de-priming, & cleaning, is done "after" annealing.
I'll do an experiment, it's going to cost me a couple of cases, but I'll use the AMP to analyze a case before, and after wet tumbling, and see if there's a difference. I'm not certain if this will work, because the AMP is so sensitive, you can see a slight difference in the result testing two new cases from the same box.
I shoot a number of different cartridges, use the same procedure for each, and only the 6.5x47 reacted differently to annealing.
All of my case prep', apart from de-priming, & cleaning, is done "after" annealing.
I'll do an experiment, it's going to cost me a couple of cases, but I'll use the AMP to analyze a case before, and after wet tumbling, and see if there's a difference. I'm not certain if this will work, because the AMP is so sensitive, you can see a slight difference in the result testing two new cases from the same box.
There was a question over whether wet tumbling and annealing "can cause neck tension to go crazy". If you wet tumble and anneal half of one batch of brass and ultrasonic clean and anneal the other and there is no difference the wet tumbling and annealing combination didn't "cause neck tension to go crazy", if the neck tension is different then it did.
Tralle
Well-Known Member
Some times I have a batch that will have very high neck tension.
When pulling them they are like welded in, using a collet puller the bullets deforms to unusability.
I dont know what causes it exactly.
Havent had the energy to do proper testing, but i suspect it happens when the brass becomes "too" clean.
I lube the necks with graphite and use them for plinking or short range training.
I still don’t really think it’s that simple and I think without suitable controls any results are no more than anecdotal. Wet tumbling has shown to only add a small amount of work hardening. It does for sure peen the case mouths which then require correct sizing and chamfering. If this isn’t done right then it will cause inconsistent neck tension.
My feeling based on many years of wet tumbling and annealing is that it’s more likely to be a mechanical or sizing issue rather than a metallurgical one caused by wet tumbling with stainless pins.
That’ll be galvanic welding from the copper and brass as dissimilar metals. Clean brass will do it more than dirty (or lubed) which will offer a layer of protection.
Lot of the competition lads mostly seat bullets long, then seat to final depth just before a comp to try and manage this. Lots of folk with these digi read outs on their seating presses can see the spike as the “weld” cracks.
Why have we not heard more about this
I have reloaded rounds (copper jacketed/cored) that have been sat around for years 
As an ex target shooter i can tell you that if one guy does something and they start to get themselves up there more frequently people will follow . Shooting 800 and over or shooting as 1-300 yard bench rest people will follow
I respond here to The stalking Directory as a Stalker not as any kind of competitor . Sorting brass , neck turning , Annealing etc can improve Scores ( sometimes its a mental shift - the placebo type effect , sometimes it might be a slight rise in accuraccy ) However most of us constantly loose brass in the undergrowth , grass etc frequently , especially when culling for numbers .
Its been over 10 years maybe 15 plus that i competed and had the offer to take a place on the team , I didn't although i truely liked the sport but wasn't really wanting to spend the time and cash on it . It really does not aid the Stalker or vermin shooter to get too involved in neck turning , annealing . The difference aint so large as to matter and your sorted and lovingly cared for brass is someplace under the heather , white grass , in the gaps in the rocks. I have seen many stalkers shoot total mixed brands of brass ( not wise but then they are not looking a Chrono and recording its velocity consistency and likely it wont matter because 4-8" placement is good for 99% of shots and of course we are not often on flat ground , no wind flags etc etc .
As long as your ammo is safe , legal and safe ( I question some stalkers are using truly safe but then there isnt often another guy on either side of you if and when a catastrophic over failure occurs) Target guys aint exactly perfect on those grounds and most long term shooters have seen mallets taken to bolt handles to get the thing open .
I just think we need to remember the differences as stalkers / hunters and Target shooters of various different event
Let's agree to respectfully disagree then.
I don't have an annealer so I can't test the theory anyway.
I don't stalk with my loved and cared for Lapua brass, I cant stand that undignified whining noise when it disappears into he long grass. I've never got to the end of my pile of second class brass so I have no idea if I'll run it through the AMP or just generate more buy buying factory.
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