Tell me again why public access stalking isn’t a viable option

[VSS]

Were you the chap in the hat who made this point (almost word for word ) at the stalking show panel discussion last Sunday? If so I was sat just to your left.

I broadly agree with you, it feels to me a bit like the sport of stalking is in a state of flux. There seems to be a traditional expectation (that was maybe reasonable in the past) that an amateur stalker can expect to stalk at their own pace, not pay (or pay very little) for the privilege, and offload excess carcasses to the game dealer at a sufficiently good price to cover a large part of the costs.

In today's world that seems unrealistic. If you're stalking for fun you're probably going to have to pay for it, either in cash or graft/time (e.g. serious doe culling to earn the right to stalk summer roebucks.)

If you want to make money selling venison you probably need to treat it as, at a minimum, a part time business and be professional about it. You probably also need to accept the reality that acting solely as a 'resource extractor' is, as in many industries, less profitable than vertically integrating and providing a product to the final consumer. Value gets added along the processing chain and, rightly or wrongly, the bulk of this isn't at the stalkers end, and that's unlikely to change. (see 'farming and supermarkets' for further details of this intractable conundrum!)

If you're a landowner who wants serious culling done, you're probably going to need to enter into a transactional relationship with someone who is making money off getting the job done. This could be straight up contracting, guiding (alongside meeting cull targets), or venison production. If you're a stalker who is being asked to do serious culling, you're almost certainly going to want something in return for the time and investment in specialist kit required. (Argos, larders etc etc)

Obviously there's scope to combine some of these strands together under certain circumstances, but that feels increasingly like good fortune rather than a reasonable expectation.

Yes, I am the chap in the hat.

 

[63]

Yes, I am the chap in the hat.

I thought it might be at the time, I should have said hello. It was a fine hat.

Pondering a bit more, I would hazard a guess that over the next decade we will see increasing amounts of stalking (in England at least) consolidated into the hands of businesses like Deerbox, who, as far as I can see, use small cadres of professionals to provide the bulk of the management/cull, and create revenue through a mix of venison sales and offering recreational stalking opportunities - be it 'supervised' syndicates or guided. In many ways that's not a world away from the traditional Scottish Sporting estate model, but with the land ownership and the 'deer business' not being aligned. 'Free' recreational stalking will probably become increasingly rare, although it will probably persist on small patches of land, especially where there are only the smaller species that are less profitable for the big boys. I expect 'medium sized' or part time stalking businesses such as many on here will get squeezed - not big enough for economies of scale, but too big to not have to turn a profit. Some will grow and some will revert to being small recreational operations.

Whether or not this would all be a good thing I don't know, it just seems like a feasible outcome of the market forces at play.

 

[jthyttin]

Some of us do as you suggest and process and sell what we shoot, I probably average £10kg for frozen and vacuum packed venison

I was suggesting real business operation, by someone that only buys venison in the skin and doesn't get involved in stalking. If you're averaging £10 per sold kilo, you're practically getting £6 or thereabouts for skinned carcass kilo. Maybe £7 if larger species and you are not too concerned about what gets in the mince.

Let's say that per kg prices that should find market and still be reasonable are something like: £15 for mince, £30 for roasts and £50 for loins.

 

[VSS]

I was suggesting real business operation, by someone that only buys venison in the skin and doesn't get involved in stalking. If you're averaging £10 per sold kilo, you're practically getting £6 or thereabouts for skinned carcass kilo. Maybe £7 if larger species and you are not too concerned about what gets in the mince.

Let's say that per kg prices that should find market and still be reasonable are something like: £15 for mince, £30 for roasts and £50 for loins.

Across a whole carcass, you should be averaging about £18 per kg retail on the lean meat yield.
A 34 kg larder weight (in-skin) fallow doe will yield about 20kg of lean meat. So £360 retail. Up to £400 if you start adding value with sausages, burgers etc.
So paying £4 per kg for the in-skin carcass (£136) seems reasonable to me. But there's got to be zero waste from shot damage, and zero waste from poor gralloching technique, and zero waste from poor carcass handling, otherwise the figures just don't stack up. The processor has considerable costs that have to be covered, including waste disposal.

 

[Cloudhopper]

I thought it might be at the time, I should have said hello. It was a fine hat.

Pondering a bit more, I would hazard a guess that over the next decade we will see increasing amounts of stalking (in England at least) consolidated into the hands of businesses like Deerbox, who, as far as I can see, use small cadres of professionals to provide the bulk of the management/cull, and create revenue through a mix of venison sales and offering recreational stalking opportunities - be it 'supervised' syndicates or guided. In many ways that's not a world away from the traditional Scottish Sporting estate model, but with the land ownership and the 'deer business' not being aligned. 'Free' recreational stalking will probably become increasingly rare, although it will probably persist on small patches of land, especially where there are only the smaller species that are less profitable for the big boys. I expect 'medium sized' or part time stalking businesses such as many on here will get squeezed - not big enough for economies of scale, but too big to not have to turn a profit. Some will grow and some will revert to being small recreational operations.

Whether or not this would all be a good thing I don't know, it just seems like a feasible outcome of the market forces at play.

Are these the same professionals that are not controlling the vast herds of fallow roaming freely across central and southern England? Imagine what that's going to look like in a decade.
CH

 

[JTO]

Maybe first part of solution would be to make multiyear deals with estates on the supply side. So it would be b-to-b contracts that should give more security for the buying side. Then get suitable assortment of buyers (restaurants, grocery shop chains, even smaller buyers for preserved goods) to commit.

Then again, this is what we are up against.

Council rejects call to target meat and dairy farming in county

DORSET councillors are being asked to target meat and dairy farming in the county to tackle climate change.

www.dorsetecho.co.uk

I doubt any public servants would want to deal with what they see as 'the landed gentry'.

 

[63]

Are these the same professionals that are not controlling the vast herds of fallow roaming freely across central and southern England? Imagine what that's going to look like in a decade.
CH

Not a scoobies. I just think it’s likely companies like Deerbox holding large amounts of stalking will become increasingly common.

I have no idea how the professionalism of stalking holders correlates with the overpopulation of fallow. Unless someone has mapped the majority of the stalking rights and overlaid the majority of the fallow herds any evidence is anecdotal at best…but if I was a betting man I’d wager that the issue is all the pockets of land where no deer management takes place, either due to land owners not allowing it or absent stalkers.

 

[slider]

Are these the same professionals that are not controlling the vast herds of fallow roaming freely across central and southern England? Imagine what that's going to look like in a decade.
CH

The problem is not the professionals. It's the landowners that provide a safe haven for deer.

 

[VSS]

The problem is not the professionals. It's the landowners that provide a safe haven for deer.

Which is of course their perogative, whether the neighbours like it or not!

 

[63]

Which is of course their perogative, whether the neighbours like it or not!

And long may that continue to be the case.

I do sometimes wonder if our collective concern about ‘deer reservoirs’ on unmanaged land is a bit performative. If you’re a venison producer next door it must be pretty helpful….

 

[jthyttin]

I doubt any public servants would want to deal with what they see as 'the landed gentry'.

Are you thinking that the whole chain of venison from field to table would be "contaminated" if the venison comes from large estates? So public sector wouldn't be buying any?

Otherwise public servants have little to do with it, since the whole chain would be private companies. And even if public sector wouldn't buy any, I think it has very limited effect since in order to maximize the value you'd have to place venison in somewhat "premium" category. So no venison in schools etc. unless there are alternate motives that outweigh cost (and IMHO there should be, but that's another story).

BTW venison is neither fish nor fowl when it comes to debate about produced meat vs. plant. First, "red meat" has nothing to do with color, it's the "bad meat". And since nobody has researched venison enough, it has no classification. Basically you can claim having non-meat diet if you only eat venison... Secondly, most objections to meat consumption fly out of the window when you're managing the deer not farming them (different thing is, that objection is emotional while they try to disguise it behind rational arguments; even when you prove the arguments wrong the objection remains).

 

[KimE]

Here in northern Sweden we have public access of smallgame hunting in the mountains (public land mostly used by rein deer herders 50*700km) for ~30£/day. Many forest companys have day leases so you can buy small game hunting online(fox,hare,grouse,beaver roedeer). For moose and other big deer you have to find a hunting team to join or get a lease of a 1000ha plot by yourself. The cost of being a member of a moosehunting team are about 500£/year in the north.

 

[Kalahari]

Which is of course their perogative, whether the neighbours like it or not!

I realize that that this is indeed the case, but have any of these people considered that they are possibly leading us all into a situation where the state decides on the cull and charges for carrying it out. It might just be more sensible to allow a small cull now if only they would take their heads out of the sand. (feeling very polite about heads today!!!)

David.

 

[VSS]

I realize that that this is indeed the case, but have any of these people considered that they are possibly leading us all into a situation where the state decides on the cull and charges for carrying it out. It might just be more sensible to allow a small cull now if only they would take their heads out of the sand. (feeling very polite about heads today!!!)

David.

Yes, I think there is a tide of change. Some are beginning to realise, and it is providing some interesting new stalking opportunities. But it's going to take time for people to accept that change is needed, and start to do things differently.

 

[Chill 123]

We have vast acres of PUBLIC land that is managed by the Forest Enterprise , To my knowledge very little of the ground is open to public stalking . Maybe we should try and get public stalking access to there ground ?
Chill

 

[HonestJohn]

We have vast acres of PUBLIC land that is managed by the Forest Enterprise , To my knowledge very little of the ground is open to public stalking . Maybe we should try and get public stalking access to there ground ?
Chill

Yes! Public land is essentially owned by YOU and ME. Private land we have no business making decisions over, that’s starting down the communism route.

If we pressured enough with petitions etc, I’m sure something could be raised to look into a tag type system in forestry commission lands etc

Why not?

The contractors will be put out of business of course, and that’s a win in my book. Sorry chaps

 

[JTO]

Are you thinking that the whole chain of venison from field to table would be "contaminated" if the venison comes from large estates? So public sector wouldn't be buying any?

Otherwise public servants have little to do with it, since the whole chain would be private companies. And even if public sector wouldn't buy any, I think it has very limited effect since in order to maximize the value you'd have to place venison in somewhat "premium" category. So no venison in schools etc. unless there are alternate motives that outweigh cost (and IMHO there should be, but that's another story).

BTW venison is neither fish nor fowl when it comes to debate about produced meat vs. plant. First, "red meat" has nothing to do with color, it's the "bad meat". And since nobody has researched venison enough, it has no classification. Basically you can claim having non-meat diet if you only eat venison... Secondly, most objections to meat consumption fly out of the window when you're managing the deer not farming them (different thing is, that objection is emotional while they try to disguise it behind rational arguments; even when you prove the arguments wrong the objection remains).

Ìf you say so!

 

[slider]

We have vast acres of PUBLIC land that is managed by the Forest Enterprise , To my knowledge very little of the ground is open to public stalking . Maybe we should try and get public stalking access to there ground ?
Chill

No chance of this happing whatsoever. Forestry and Land Scotland (previously Forestry Enterprise Scotland, previously Forestry Commission Scotland) used to have a large number of syndicate leases and also client stalking. All client stalking and all but a very few leases have been stopped and (like many leases) they were not providing sufficient deer control - stalkers more interested in trophy bucks than sustained doe culls.

Almost all FLS deer management is now either by inhouse rangers or contractors. The very few lease that remain are in area where contractors don't want to go!!!

I was in one of these leases until last year - complete bandit country with locals regularly setting fires and ATV/Motocross bike all over the place!!!

What MAY be possible in a few selected places is community managed stalking. If successful it may then be rolled out further.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Yes! Public land is essentially owned by YOU and ME. Private land we have no business making decisions over, that’s starting down the communism route.

If we pressured enough with petitions etc, I’m sure something could be raised to look into a tag type system in forestry commission lands etc

Why not?

The contractors will be put out of business of course, and that’s a win in my book. Sorry chaps

This is Scotland. We already have mandated access to all land for the public to enjoy it without being excluded .

Quite rightly so I may add

 

[HonestJohn]

This is Scotland. We already have mandated access to all land for the public to enjoy it without being excluded .

Quite rightly so I may add

Right to roam is one thing, shooting over private land by the public sits poorly with me tbh, even if the landowner is not fulfilling required cull levels