Had enough of bureaucracy

[User00056]

Bit of a rant I'm afraid.

Last year the majority of my stalking was in the three weeks or so prior to local markets. It reached the point where it became a necessary chore and I felt under so much pressure that the enjoyment was lost. I was out for myself last weekend though, and it brought home to me just why I put my butchery together. I have a buck in the chiller, it's purely for us, and I'm actually looking forward to dealing with it!

I don't make a lot of money from markets to be honest, even though I mostly end up sold-out. My intention was to put local wild venison on people's radar, but despite so many making encouraging noises my efforts were largely met with apathy, indifference, and the inevitable and infuriating HG/imported venison/ supermarket argument. Another massive issue is just how hamstrung the rules and regulations have made me. For example, despite holding all the correct certification, including the Scottish requirement for a Venison Dealers License, I'm not allowed to buy in carcasses from qualified stalkers and process them for sale without being forced down the AGHE route. Nor can I offer local smallholders a butchery service for one or two sheep, or a pig. My most recent inspector told me I can no longer offer pulled pork or pork sausage either, as this would mean I was no longer mainly trading in venison. This is despite the Council being aware of exactly what I produce for the last three years.

I reckon I may just about have broken even with what I've spent, with possibly a slight slant to being in the black. HMRC will remain untroubled by my endeavours though, as I suspect if I worked out what my hourly rate has been it would break my heart.

Three years of busting my ass that has seen me just about break even is enough punishment, and I'm going to call it a day at that. I've committed to the Highland Games at Glamis Castle this year, and I'm going to make that my swan song.

I know I'm not the only small producer in the area who's been broken by this bureaucracy, and it's just another example of how free enterprise and initiative is stifled in the UK today. I'm pretty p*ssed off, I have to say.

 

[Mike1979]

Sad to hear this and it must be really frustrating. Until people start eating venison more widely things wont improve. When people like you try hard to encourage this and it doesnt go to plan its disheartening. Lots of tales of AGHE not taking animals, paying pathetic prices etc...not a good situation.

I know of plenty of occasions of people not going out as there is no avenue to get rid of the deer...and therefore the numbers increase further. I try and eat as much of what I shoot as I can but a fallow goes a long way and whilst I love venison 4-5 meals a week and I want a change.

At least you tried which is a lot more then most

 

[User00056]

At least you tried

I gave it my very best shot, I must admit. The really upsetting part of it is that I have so many folk coming back to me at the various markets I was attending. The rot set in when I found out I could only sell what I had a direct hand in shooting myself. Despite the crystal clear wording on the venison dealers license I'm unable to buy a carcass from fellow stalkers, and this has led to so much pressure to shoot deer prior to a market that it's effectively turned them into a commodity. So much for 'ethical' venison, hey?

The other sickener is the Council being unable to interpret their own legislation, so make up and change the rules as they go along. I'm just done with it

 

[Mike1979]

I gave it my very best shot, I must admit. The really upsetting part of it is that I have so many folk coming back to me at the various markets I was attending. The rot set in when I found out I could only sell what I had a direct hand in shooting myself. Despite the crystal clear wording on the venison dealers license I'm unable to buy a carcass from fellow stalkers, and this has led to so much pressure to shoot deer prior to a market that it's effectively turned them into a commodity. So much for 'ethical' venison, hey?

The other sickener is the Council being unable to interpret their own legislation, so make up and change the rules as they go along. I'm just done with it

I dont blame you at all. If you have to deal with crap and you make a tidy profit its worth it...otherwise its not.

I do struggle to see the difference in you shooting an animal, inspecting it and putting it into the food chain as apposed to someone "trained" shooting the animal, inspecting it then you putting it into the food chain...keeps people employed in the council is suppose.

Keep smiling

 

[Heym SR20]

Bit of a rant I'm afraid.

Last year the majority of my stalking was in the three weeks or so prior to local markets. It reached the point where it became a necessary chore and I felt under so much pressure that the enjoyment was lost. I was out for myself last weekend though, and it brought home to me just why I put my butchery together. I have a buck in the chiller, it's purely for us, and I'm actually looking forward to dealing with it!

I don't make a lot of money from markets to be honest, even though I mostly end up sold-out. My intention was to put local wild venison on people's radar, but despite so many making encouraging noises my efforts were largely met with apathy, indifference, and the inevitable and infuriating HG/imported venison/ supermarket argument. Another massive issue is just how hamstrung the rules and regulations have made me. For example, despite holding all the correct certification, including the Scottish requirement for a Venison Dealers License, I'm not allowed to buy in carcasses from qualified stalkers and process them for sale without being forced down the AGHE route. Nor can I offer local smallholders a butchery service for one or two sheep, or a pig. My most recent inspector told me I can no longer offer pulled pork or pork sausage either, as this would mean I was no longer mainly trading in venison. This is despite the Council being aware of exactly what I produce for the last three years.

I reckon I may just about have broken even with what I've spent, with possibly a slight slant to being in the black. HMRC will remain untroubled by my endeavours though, as I suspect if I worked out what my hourly rate has been it would break my heart.

Three years of busting my ass that has seen me just about break even is enough punishment, and I'm going to call it a day at that. I've committed to the Highland Games at Glamis Castle this year, and I'm going to make that my swan song.

I know I'm not the only small producer in the area who's been broken by this bureaucracy, and it's just another example of how free enterprise and initiative is stifled in the UK today. I'm pretty p*ssed off, I have to say.

BREXIT was supposed to remove all the red tape of Europe. It has, but replaced it with the Blue Tape of British clipboards.

Europe is full of small artisan type producers of food products. They don’t even feature on a national or even county scale, but they work in their local community producing high quality food for local people.

Yet here in the UK we tied up with little room for small producers. The Supermarkets have driven this. They don’t want any competition, and their supply chain has followed the example with large monopoly producers and no interest at all from competition commission.

In Scotland there is a contract between Forestry Scotland and one major dealer who in turn supplies supermarkets. Most of the smaller ones are struggling. Farms doing farm meat to consumer also struggling. Trying to find an abbattoir / butcher is near impossible. Yet 30years ago many country butchers had their own small abbattoir. When I lived down south working on farms down in Oxfordshire, there was abbattoirs in Wallingford, Benson, Didcot and Thame. You could take half a dozen lambs in first thing, and pick them up a of couple days later to go straight to customers. It was an hours job to round the sheep up, sort out half a dozen, load them in the van, drop them off, have a cup of tea with the butcher and be back at the farm.

Somehow, we have let large corporates take over. You can’t be a local producer of free range chicken. Well you can if you are only producing very few, but if you want to make money, nae chance. You have to do it at a scale where you can run a production line full time employing veterinary services doing health checks.

They used to blame Europe. Quite rightly the regulations say the animal must be healthy before slaughter. British authorities, probably bowing to pressure from large corporate, interpret this as needing full time veterinary practitioners being employed on sight to check each animal before and after slaughter.

Likewise food production requires full laboratory facilities for testing each and every batch.

 

[User00056]

Europe is full of small artisan type producers of food products. They don’t even feature on a national or even county scale, but they work in their local community producing high quality food for local people

That's exactly where I sat in the market. I took huge pride in what I produced, and it was always remarked upon how seldom people met a meat producer who was practically 100% responsible for the products they were buying. So much for Brexit, as you say.

I wonder if a letter to my MP might generate some discussion

 

[HandB]

Yes I grew up on a farm in Devon and the small scale local abattoir/slaughterman was the norm and was great for animal welfare because they were killed on their home farm or nearby. The EU brought that to an end due their idiotic decision to have a few giant abattoirs in each country. That might work in a tiny compact nation like Belgium but it actually harmed animal welfare in a larger nation like the UK by giving rise to long journeys from farm to abattoir which stressed the animals and reduced meat quality. But the thing that is really annoying is that this stupid rule doesn't harm EU nations like Spain, France, Italy etc. because unlike the UK, their governments don't bother enforcing it and turn a blind eye to small scale slaughtering by peasants in remote areas. It's us mugs in the UK who have to suffer from the stupid EU ideas because our government takes EU rules seriously, even when we have left the EU.

 

[Mike1979]

We normally keep pigs and had issues in 2023 with the abattoir that resulted in 2 aborted trips and fatter pigs...we collected them and in the interim they increased the price from £65 to £95 per animal which meant we took the hit as we had already agreed prices with friends and family. To be fair £95 is a fair price for the effort of killing and cutting but there is so little choice....the meat is so good its worth it though...just about.

 

[sauer]

I'm The Armchair Hunter on social media and also a small scale producer under same exact EHO office as Stuart the op .

i started up roughly same time within few months...
my story was a neighbour who we didn't get on with from minute moved in dictating what could and couldn't do etc

i converted double garage to a larder only facility went full 9 yards and wife says to me one day ....if bu55erlugs across the road phone sin and EHO come they wont believe set up i have is a passion not a side-line it wasn't , i refused to sell as wasn't legal simple...

i work offshore on an on call basis so i got legal as an ar5e covering exercise and ability to pass on any excess me and family weren't eating...

another main driver was to put across our side of argument to fight antis and what better way than medium of food ?


i was doing butchery service for other stalkers locally and a market there for it .. bring their own kill to me i do it and its labelled butchery service only own stalker self certified and meat not for resale... but was told last inspection that although understood where i was coming from couldn't do it .

my problem i i have the market / folk wanting product but i don't have enough ground / permission / deer to keep me going and supply others to what im being asked for .

EHO was nice and no animosity ...even had to keep them right with things form wildgame guidance initially...
then the venison dealers licence which is only a piece of paper fit for f*ck all that serves no purpose practically,.

i run at a loss but my ar5e is covered if someone phones up and says fred in a shed at said address is selling game .... then they council can simply say yes we know.
I've jumped thru hoops, the certification, courses etc

i like having ability to pass it on but its basically paying for piece of mind on my hobby... no way to make money if you include hourly rate on time put in
then record keeping and of course the cleaning up

but I'm passionate about venison and game and its link to a more non ultra processed food

Stuart and i have met puckle times over coffee had a moan and I'm considering packing in selling bit and stuff goes with it ..and keeping it going as a hobby and to push our argument ...side of things socially.

im all for hygiene and increase in standards but to then strangle you in ability seems typical of red tape

Paul

The Armchair Hunter

 

[VSS]

When compared to other fascets of rural life in the UK, I find the whole venison processing and retailing thing to be refreshingly free from excessive bureaucracy.

 

[Heym SR20]

That's exactly where I sat in the market. I took huge pride in what I produced, and it was always remarked upon how seldom people met a meat producer who was practically 100% responsible for the products they were buying. So much for Brexit, as you say.

I wonder if a letter to my MP might generate some discussion

Possibly, but I would also get onto Fieldsports Britain channel and also BASC and other similar organisations.

Deer Management, of which consuming the end product is very much part of the process has to be about local hunters with local people and local consumption.

As usual in the UK we are taking a large scale corporate view.

I draw on experience from hunting in Germany. German friends a riviere of about 400 hectares in mid Germany. Off this they shoot about 60 Wild boar and 15 Roe a year. The land is mixed farmland, deciduous and coniferous woodland, with the woods about 30% of the land. 2/3 of the cull is on two driven hunts in the winter. The rest being stalked/ high seats during summer seasons.

Everything is eaten within 10 km of the land. Local butcher takes about 1/2, some go to restaurants, many go direct to local villagers - some as complete carcasses, others skinned out. Some money does change hands, but a lot is swapped for other produce. The hunting hut / larder is on the village green and is part of the sports pavillion ( think village green cricket). A few pigs get braied for village football matches, and other community gatherings.

Boar are tested for trichanella. A sample is taken sent to lab and results within 24 to 48 hours - pig is in the larder during this period.

 

[weblyish]

I'm deeply sorry to hear that

Agree with the point that the UK always takes the petty beurocracy far more seriously than other EU nations where I know that unauthorized at home slaughter and processing is more common

But also, In some ways I'm part of the issue the product needs consumer demand willing to pay good money

I smirk at the farmers market venison, pigeon or partridge since it's always been donated free or part of the activity for me - ha! who would pay £30 for venison fillets? Etc etc

But if I never buy it in supermarkets or farmers markets then what do I expect will happen except producers will suffer

 

[Bavarianbrit]

BREXIT was supposed to remove all the red tape of Europe. It has, but replaced it with the Blue Tape of British clipboards.

Europe is full of small artisan type producers of food products. They don’t even feature on a national or even county scale, but they work in their local community producing high quality food for local people.

Yet here in the UK we tied up with little room for small producers. The Supermarkets have driven this. They don’t want any competition, and their supply chain has followed the example with large monopoly producers and no interest at all from competition commission.

In Scotland there is a contract between Forestry Scotland and one major dealer who in turn supplies supermarkets. Most of the smaller ones are struggling. Farms doing farm meat to consumer also struggling. Trying to find an abbattoir / butcher is near impossible. Yet 30years ago many country butchers had their own small abbattoir. When I lived down south working on farms down in Oxfordshire, there was abbattoirs in Wallingford, Benson, Didcot and Thame. You could take half a dozen lambs in first thing, and pick them up a of couple days later to go straight to customers. It was an hours job to round the sheep up, sort out half a dozen, load them in the van, drop them off, have a cup of tea with the butcher and be back at the farm.

Somehow, we have let large corporates take over. You can’t be a local producer of free range chicken. Well you can if you are only producing very few, but if you want to make money, nae chance. You have to do it at a scale where you can run a production line full time employing veterinary services doing health checks.

They used to blame Europe. Quite rightly the regulations say the animal must be healthy before slaughter. British authorities, probably bowing to pressure from large corporate, interpret this as needing full time veterinary practitioners being employed on sight to check each animal before and after slaughter.

Likewise food production requires full laboratory facilities for testing each and every batch.

I last week spent a week roe hunting with my vet pal in Freiburg Germany, he is the local abattoir 3x designated meat controller and is paid a monthly fee by the authorities of 50K€ per year, he calls it easy money but the councils now want to stop using vets and drop the job down to using trained workers instead.
In Bavaria but not in the big cities, I live in the boonies, the two big local supermarkets players are Edeka & Rewe and on their meat counter there is no venison ever to be seen, but, there are some small and one big game dealers (he does 20,000 animals per year even imports from Polish driven hunts, he plays jagdhorn with me) where everyone goes for their game meat. BTW I have never seen any NZ meat there for sale.

 

[User00056]

When compared to other fascets of rural life in the UK, I find the whole venison processing and retailing thing to be refreshingly free from excessive bureaucracy.

That's definitely not been our experience up here, as @sauer can testify.

I completely understand why legislation is required from a food safety perspective. What I can't get my head around is to then comply with all that legislation, obtain certification, insurance, skills, equipment, and invest time, money, and those very skills into creating top quality products, to then have your wings clipped by very legislation you're abiding by. It's idiotic

 

[Dunwaters]

I feel your pain.
I flirted briefly with butchering and charcuterie, but it quickly became obvious that I couldn’t do it all, there just aren’t enough hours in the day and not enough profit to chuck in the day job.
Nowadays I shoot about 6 for ourselves and put the rest into the weigh and pay.
The rules and regulations are a bit of a passion killer. Despite what they tell you, they are mostly all your own, the EU sets down the minimum standards acceptable and then leaves it up to individual countries to enact the appropriate rules.
Both your government and ours went way above the baselines.
BREXIT won’t help you, how many purely national regulations have been repealed over the last 4 years?

 

[User00056]

I have never seen any NZ meat there for sale.

New Zealand and Eastern Europe both have a market for venison here, would you believe?

And this'll blow your stack - a few years ago, Lidl were selling shot pheasant. 'Brilliant', I thought.

Until I found out they were Imported from Romania at £8 a bird, despite UK shoots having no access to that very same market.

 

[User00056]

@Conor O'Gorman I know this is putting you on the spot a bit (apologies) but does BASC have any position on the difficulties faced by small venison producers, and would it be feasible to try to open communications to see if there'd be a way to reduce the prohibitive legislative burdens?

 

[Heym SR20]

I have also heard myths through the grapevine that in certain communities venison magically turns into vegetables, combs of honey, and buckets of scalllops. Venison goes into the larder, but when you go to butcher it, it has transformed. I am tockaloshes and Haggis are somehow involved.

 

[VSS]

That's definitely not been our experience up here, as @sauer can testify.

I completely understand why legislation is required from a food safety perspective. What I can't get my head around is to then comply with all that legislation, obtain certification, insurance, skills, equipment, and invest time, money, and those very skills into creating top quality products, to then have your wings clipped by very legislation you're abiding by. It's idiotic

What is it that's making it so complex in Scotland? I know your legislation differs slightly from ours, but I'm not sure exactly what the differences are.

 

[User00056]

What is it that's making it so complex in Scotland? I know your legislation differs slightly from ours, but I'm not sure exactly what the differences are.

It shouldn't be complex! The only real difference is we must hold a dealers license.

The sticking point is that for the likes of @sauer and myself, in order to maintain a consistent supply of venison we either need to be out shooting deer, or to buy in carcasses from other stalkers. Which is EXACTLY what the dealers license states we can do under it's terms. Those terms are then contradicted by the Wild Game Guide rules for small quantity production for primary producers. It's a convoluted, unnecessarily prohibitive set of legislative pitfalls that constantly contradict themselves and lead to confusion. If all I was doing was producing venison that I've shot myself then it's as simple as you find it. As we hold full time jobs though, trying to run as a small part time business is proving to be prohibitive.

Your market position is slightly simpler, as you produce your venison products from your own deer.