Before election labour said they would use full cost recovery to fight knife crime. After the election they changed thier minds. The policing minister has asked all police chiefs to use the extra money for firearms licensing only. That's my understanding, I'm happy to be corrected.
BASC update on ringfencing of firearms licensing fees
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
The list in the OP was out of date, four more police forces had also confirmed to BASC that they will ringfence the funds - Cumbria, Essex, Hampshire and Lancashire. Updated list as follows:
The police forces that have provided assurances on the resourcing of firearms licensing departments are:
The police forces that have not provided assurances, or have not responded to BASC, are:
basc.org.uk
The police forces that have provided assurances on the resourcing of firearms licensing departments are:
- Cheshire
- Cumbria
- Derbyshire
- Dorset
- Dyfed Powys
- Essex
- Gloucestershire
- Hampshire
- Kent
- Lancashire
- Norfolk
- Northumbria
- North Yorkshire
- Staffordshire
- Suffolk
- Surrey
- West Mercia
The police forces that have not provided assurances, or have not responded to BASC, are:
- Avon & Somerset
- Bedfordshire
- Cambridgeshire
- Cleveland
- Devon & Cornwall
- Durham
- Greater Manchester Police
- Gwent
- Hertfordshire
- Humberside
- Leicestershire
- Lincolnshire
- Merseyside
- Metropolitan Police Service
- Northamptonshire
- North Wales
- Nottinghamshire
- South Wales
- South Yorkshire
- Sussex
- Thames Valley Police
- Warwickshire
- West Midlands Police
- West Yorkshire
- Wiltshire
Silence on firearms licensing fees speaks volumes
The majority of forces in England and Wales have failed to confirm that fee increases will be used to fund firearms licensing departments.
basc.org.uk
I think the issue here is not what police forces volunteer to use the funding for. The fact of the matter is that we are paying in full for the costs of a properly functional firearms licensing system operating without delays and to an 8 week grant and renewal timetable. If individual forces are allocating lesser sums for licensing, that seems pretty clearly to be a case of nonfeasance or misfeasance, and the officer(s) responsible ought to be getting held accountable by either their PCC or the Home Office, and that's where our efforts ought to be directed.
Instead, I see suggestions from government or police that the "improvements" are to include reclassifying failure as good service by changing the timescale from 8 weeks to 4 months. Actually, it's reasonable to have a firm service standard of no more than 6 weeks given the efficiencies created by moving away from exclusively paper-based application systems. @Conor O'Gorman , Is BASC taking issue with this proposed degrading of the system?
Instead, I see suggestions from government or police that the "improvements" are to include reclassifying failure as good service by changing the timescale from 8 weeks to 4 months. Actually, it's reasonable to have a firm service standard of no more than 6 weeks given the efficiencies created by moving away from exclusively paper-based application systems. @Conor O'Gorman , Is BASC taking issue with this proposed degrading of the system?
Probably ringfenced it for travelling expenses unless she work's from home.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Correct, that illogical suggestion was in their pre-election manifesto. That changed with the post-election autumn budget statement explaining that the knife crime reduction initiatives would be funded from some of the £billions freed up from the cancellation of the Migration and Economic Development Partnership (MEDP) with Rwanda.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...5f6ef579/Autumn_Budget_2024__print_ready_.pdf
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Yes, there are multiples issues to be addressed including timescales for grants and renewals in England and Wales and BASC and BSSC have been taking issue with all these overlapping fundamental problems - more funding alone will not solve these issues - but if fees revenue does not even reach the FLD that's not helpful either. The government’s justification for the recent above inflation increase in firearms licensing fees was that the extra funds raised would go to support the work of FLDs, although it has no powers to ensure this happens. This update from BASC underlines our argument. More updates will follow on this and the wider context.
Which will be a flop , its not knives you see its the drug trade and the kids that are used to peddle the drugs. Every house has knives that wont end , prisoners use makeshift knives in prisons these gangs are dealing in product from all over the world - messing about with low end Kids with knives is never going to stop . UNTIL we fix the drug gangs and secure our borders nothing will change
Part of the problem is the obvious need for reform such as like for like variations . Or similar for similar (e.g 222/223).
Extra money (maybe) for the same inefficiencies.
Moderators being 'on ticket' got the last how many decades. What a joke.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Could you forward the email to me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk because we have yet to hear direct from PCC or Chief Constable with this assurance in writing. Which is surprising given that the PCC is very focused on improvements and holding chief constable to account on this, and has provided staff resources to the combined FLD. Indeed this was covered here: Police need policing on firearm licensing
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Please do, thank you!
ContinShots
Well-Known Member
What has the Police Service of Scotland said?More than two-thirds of police forces in England and Wales have failed to give assurances to back up a Home Office pledge that money raised by increasing firearms licensing fees would be ploughed back into firearms licensing.
The police forces that have provided assurances on the resourcing of firearms licensing departments are:
• Cheshire
• Derbyshire
• Dorset
• Dyfed Powys
• Gloucestershire
• Kent
• Norfolk
• Northumbria
• North Yorkshire
• Staffordshire
• Suffolk
• Surrey
• West Mercia
The police forces that have not provided assurances, or have not responded to BASC, are:
• Avon & Somerset
• Bedfordshire
• Cambridgeshire
• Cleveland
• Cumbria
• Devon & Cornwall
• Durham
• Essex
• Greater Manchester Police
• Gwent
• Hampshire
• Hertfordshire
• Humberside
• Lancashire
• Leicestershire
• Lincolnshire
• Merseyside
• Metropolitan Police Service
• Northamptonshire
• North Wales
• Nottinghamshire
• South Wales
• South Yorkshire
• Sussex
• Thames Valley Police
• Warwickshire
• West Midlands Police
• West Yorkshire
• Wiltshire
This is not the end of the matter, BASC will keep pushing on this issue.
What would help is forum members contacting their PCC for the police forces in the second list above to explain why they are on this BASC list.
Also, what would help is forum members contacting their PCCs for the forces in the first list above giving positive feedback on their police force having provided assurances to BASC on the resourcing of their firearms licensing departments.
For more information visit:
Silence on firearms licensing fees speaks volumes
The majority of forces in England and Wales have failed to confirm that fee increases will be used to fund firearms licensing departments.
ContinShots
Well-Known Member
To be fair to Police Scotland, licensing up here is pretty much fine as it is. They hit their KPIs and the service level agreement on the vast majority of applications. They've also just employed more FEOs.
Sinistral
Well-Known Member
Conor, I think you or BASC might be gilding the lily slightly here. I don't recall any mention of 'please' or 'maybe'.
Chief Constables haven't been asked politely if they will use the revenue from the fees increase to improve Firearms Licensing.
They've been told to. This is an imperative issued by the Home Office.
The Policing Minister Dame Diana Johnson has issued a written statement in Parliament to say so.
HANSARD
Written question - submitted by Mr Angus MacDonald, MP (Labour)
Question for Home Office
Firearms: Licensing
To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether the funds raised from the increase in firearms licensing fees will be ringfenced for administering firearms licensing.
Asked 28 January 2025
Answered 4 February 2025
By Dame Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
On 15 January, the Government laid a statutory instrument before Parliament that will increase fees charged by police forces to provide full-cost recovery for firearms licensing applications. The new fees will come into force on 5 February.
It is essential for both public safety and police efficiency that full cost recovery fees are introduced so that service improvements can be made. I have therefore written to all Police and Crime Commissioners and Chief Constables to make clear that the income from increased fees must be used to ensure their firearms licensing teams are properly resourced and trained for this purpose.
Other manifesto commitments under the Safer Streets mission will be delivered through alternative funding routes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the link (WQ No 27012).
The word 'must' was used here, so why isn't every PCC (of the 43), or the Minister holding the feet of every COP to the fire?
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
I think we wrote to the Scottish Police Authority (they have oversight on Police Scotland, no PCC in Scotland) and I don't know what the reply was. I will ask colleagues.
Police Scotland are performing well relative to police forces in England and Wales.
Annual Statistical and User Satisfaction Publication 2024/2025
Firearms
• 87.4% of new applications were concluded within 16 weeks, up 7.8% on the previous year.
• 97.8% of renewal applications were concluded before expiry, up 1.2% from the previous year.
Shotguns
• 84% of new applications were concluded within 16 weeks, up 6.3% from the previous year.
• 97.9% of renewal applications were concluded before expiry, up 2.1% from the previous year.
Airguns
• 89.6% of new applications were concluded within 16 weeks, up 6.3% from the previous year.
• 97.8% of renewal applications were concluded before expiry, up 1% from the previous year.
ContinShots
Well-Known Member
Yes. I don't really have any complaints about how Police Scotland approach firearms licensing in terms of process (although they need at least 2 more Firearms & Explosives Enquiry Officers to speed up the explosives side of things now that everything that goes bang in a muzzle loading firearm needs a certificate). Police Scotland was also well ahead of the curve on GP involvement, so the Home Office direction hasn't really changed all that much here for the most part. We also have a different firearms licensing computer system (Shogun) which seems to work more reliably, even if there's no online application process. Many of us in Scotland are actually a little concerned that changes that may be useful for England & Wales or pushed through relative to things down south could be forced on us up here and make things worse, not better.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Because the government has no power to enforce its wishes in matters of operational independence, such as police budgeting. BASC has been pushing hard on ringfencing of fees and myriad other issues as per my updates on this forum. You have had a reply from me within the hour. Would you perhaps consider re-joining to support us in the battles ahead?Conor, I think you or BASC might be gilding the lily slightly here. I don't recall any mention of 'please' or 'maybe'.
Chief Constables haven't been asked politely if they will use the revenue from the fees increase to improve Firearms Licensing.
They've been told to. This is an imperative issued by the Home Office.
The Policing Minister Dame Diana Johnson has issued a written statement in Parliament to say so.
HANSARD
Written question - submitted by Mr Angus MacDonald, MP (Labour)
Question for Home Office
Firearms: Licensing
To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether the funds raised from the increase in firearms licensing fees will be ringfenced for administering firearms licensing.
Asked 28 January 2025
Answered 4 February 2025
By Dame Diana Johnson (Labour, Kingston upon Hull North and Cottingham)
On 15 January, the Government laid a statutory instrument before Parliament that will increase fees charged by police forces to provide full-cost recovery for firearms licensing applications. The new fees will come into force on 5 February.
It is essential for both public safety and police efficiency that full cost recovery fees are introduced so that service improvements can be made. I have therefore written to all Police and Crime Commissioners and Chief Constables to make clear that the income from increased fees must be used to ensure their firearms licensing teams are properly resourced and trained for this purpose.
Other manifesto commitments under the Safer Streets mission will be delivered through alternative funding routes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the link (WQ No 27012).
The word 'must' was used here, so why isn't every PCC (of the 43), or the Minister holding the feet of every COP to the fire?
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