Hand over does have to be face to face but the debate is who fills in the certificate, although not sure why any debate as the law is quite clear it is the seller, end of
FORGED FIREARMS AND SHOTGUN CERTIFICATES
- Thread starter sikamalc
- Start date
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
If I can recall it correctly last time I did a distant selling the purchaser sent me his fac with vacant slot for me to fill in, I then took this along with the rifle to my local RFD who posted it to the purchaser's local RFD for collection.
And that is how it has to done by law, no ifs no buts
Which is why I won’t buy anything that’s not reasonably local to me,
I it can’t be done face to face then it ain’t happening!
Transfers where the RFD enters the firearms is the only safe and secure way .
There only one address I’ll send my ticket to and that’s Lilly Law !
This is the most ridiculous rule theve ever come up with , especially in an age of AI and technology printing!
Personally I believe this a huge issue and must be causing the gun trade serious financial problems, second hand rifles are virtually impossible to sell and basically now worthless, which a perfect environment for crims to operate in,
I it can’t be done face to face then it ain’t happening!
Transfers where the RFD enters the firearms is the only safe and secure way .
There only one address I’ll send my ticket to and that’s Lilly Law !
This is the most ridiculous rule theve ever come up with , especially in an age of AI and technology printing!
Personally I believe this a huge issue and must be causing the gun trade serious financial problems, second hand rifles are virtually impossible to sell and basically now worthless, which a perfect environment for crims to operate in,
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Firearms licensing could probably learn a lot of lessons from the way that the clearing banks process debit/credit card transactions in live time, but why bring things into the modern era when forging an FAC is as easy as forging an old fashioned cheque?
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
First small (or not so small) distinction it's Law not rule, they are not one in the same.
Secondly the law was written pre modern computer, printer etc etc. Thirdly trying to get the law changed (except panicked bans) in firearm legislation is slow going. Even when it is likely to vastly improve public safety (it is what firearms licensing is all about after all (isn't it?)).
I understand your stance, and I have only bought one rifle that I didn't look at first. But sometimes needs must, a trusted RFD did the leg work and bought it on my behalf. So it is not the same kind of transaction from my side.
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
As already posted there is a legal procedure to sell via RFD delivery. The actual sale and filling out of FAC might not be "Face To Face", but each time the firearms is handed over it is F2F with an appropriately authorised person. Who has the legal authority to be in possession of said firearm.
Yes we have those electronic systems, and we assume they work without issue. However after previous issues with computer systems you can understand a certain reluctance to change (especially if they think the current system works).
There is the possibility of a fit for purpose value for money system that works. There are after all similar ones in use. AI could be used to lessen work load ie check your digital footprint, the list goes on. Just don't hold your breath. We've been waiting for them to see taking moderators off ticket as a sensible option for years.
So your FEO said you could be in breach by sticking to the law? Like to hear his justification for that one!
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
Kind of proves my earlier point, re quals and training.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Online bank accounts seem to be secure and work reliably, the technology is there to be used!
From all sense and purpose I’m personally out of any transactions that require RFD involvement,
There’s no way I’m posting my certificate which I’ve held continuously since 81’ to anyone except for plod,
This obviously hugely reduces my options for both buying and selling,
I’m happy to maybe travel 100 miles each way to do a deal , but also happy just to use my RFD and buy directly from him
Just like the old days !
The down side is unfortunately most have either retired gone bust or just sold up!
Just part of the death of firearm ownership by a thousand cuts ,
There’s no way I’m posting my certificate which I’ve held continuously since 81’ to anyone except for plod,
This obviously hugely reduces my options for both buying and selling,
I’m happy to maybe travel 100 miles each way to do a deal , but also happy just to use my RFD and buy directly from him
Just like the old days !
The down side is unfortunately most have either retired gone bust or just sold up!
Just part of the death of firearm ownership by a thousand cuts ,
His argument was that sending a document listing all firearms and address to a complete stranger could be viewed as not taking all due care for security, if it all went horribly wrong!
He can argue all he wants, the rules are the rules, you are not in breach by obeying the rulesHis argument was that sending a document listing all firearms and address to a complete stranger could be viewed as not taking all due care for security, if it all went horribly wrong!
Wonder if he thinks the same when they post out certificates, which are always second class, should they fall into the wrong hands?
Personally in this case I would rather bend the rules, than have a watertight legal defence AFTER some bunch of thugs has smashed into my house and stolen my firearms! In this situation, following the rules just seems like a stupid risk. At least FLD are posting the licence to the person it applies to, rather than to a complete stranger. It is the end result that is important, not the method by which you reach it.
Sonicdmb73
Well-Known Member
That would be taken care of in a single sentence quoting HOG and paragraph, or the specific section of the firearms act. Although I doubt it would even be brought up.His argument was that sending a document listing all firearms and address to a complete stranger could be viewed as not taking all due care for security, if it all went horribly wrong!
You're not bending the rules. You are breaking the Law. If you are concerned of the risk you would simply not buy in this manner. You have the option to use your local RFD or a seller within your acceptable travelling distance.
Try telling your FEO "It is the end result that is important, not the method by which you reach it" at your next renewal and see how it goes for you.
As FAC holders we cannot pick and chose which bits of the law to abide by. Because if caught they will take your FAC, if they link you to your user name even making the comment could give doubt to your continued suitability to hold FAC/SGC. Think that might be a bit paranoid, well it ain't. George Orwell was nearer the mark than he imagined.
I followed the purchase method as outlined by the FLD. The seller gifted the rifle to his RFD who put it onto his register and then transferred it to my RFD. My RFD then gifted it to me and added it to my license. All straight forward, all traceable, and all following the written instructions from the FLD, which also stated categorically that I must not send my FAC to the seller. I fail to see what you are getting excited about? I asked the FLD how to proceed and they told me what they wanted to happen. Both RFDs were in the loop and happy with the process. Rifle transferred, full traceability, and everyone happy. Was the law complied with? As far as my FLD, Gwent FLD, and the sellers FLD were concerned, yes.
Your Firearms Licensing Department were categorically wrong in their instructions to you, whether written or verbal.
The only reason you managed to successfully carry out the transfer was by having a couple of willing RFDs who were prepared to ignore the rules.
The FLDs have to interpret the law and apply it. Bearing in mind that the law is outdated and has been left behind by the real world, they have a tricky path to walk. They have to make the law useable. They are the people who determine how things need to be done. They were approached for guidance on how to proceed and gave written instructions. These were followed. They were happy. If you have a problem with their instructions then I suggest you take it up with them.
People continually moan about the law being out of date/no longer fit for purpose and everyone knows it won’t be updated or changed anytime soon. Here are FLDs trying to interpret the law so that it is useable, whilst still achieving the correct and legal end result - a firearm transferred with complete traceability.
People continually moan about the law being out of date/no longer fit for purpose and everyone knows it won’t be updated or changed anytime soon. Here are FLDs trying to interpret the law so that it is useable, whilst still achieving the correct and legal end result - a firearm transferred with complete traceability.
Not sure how they interpret the seller must complete the buyers certificate other than what it says, question for you on the back of this, when you notify your FLD who you bought it from, baring in mind the seller signs the cert what do put?
fixedwheel
Well-Known Member
I'm sure @Conor O'Gorman would be interested in that written instruction from your FLD, as a matter of professional interest, without getting into the conversation.
The problem that the way that transaction has occurred, like it or not, is that the RFD that gifted you the rifle is now responsible for that rifle being safe and in proof.
What happens to a potentially criminal investigation, if that rifle was to fail on a firing point at a range, and a third party was injured?
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