Rewilding

[countrryboy]

If u wanted to get really contraversial u could throw badgers, buzzards and red kites.
Possibly even add PM and Goshawks in very localised areas if a specfic rare animal is paticularly threatened or for scientific studies.
Under a very strict licence

Almost impossible to truely study the effect a predaror has on prey without removing the said predator from that landscape.
Which is shown in the Gwct otterburn study or a few studies carried out in badger cull zones on hedgehogs.

This protecting stuff forever and never speaking about it again is simply not working.
Never mind the likes of rspb not admitting how many crows and foxes they kill and spending millions erecting predator fences and then make out predation has no impact.
If they were hobest would make a big difference althou cost them donations

 

[buckonabike]

I think forget the idea of Pine Marten saving the red by eating the grey tbh - do you not think the marten will just kill the young reds in the dreys - with far less defence coming from the adults ? I do !

Since both species are native, I would imagine the Reds already have ways of protecting themselves from this predator. The hope is that Greys, not accustomed to them, will be at a disadvantage. Greys are heavier than Reds and spend more time on the woodland floor, making them more vulnerable to Pine Marten attack. Reds, being lighter, can next higher and on flimsier branches than Pine Martens can use. But I suppose the thing to do is wait and see. No doubt there is ongoing monitoring and, at some point, results will be published.

 

[jall55]

Since both species are native, I would imagine the Reds already have ways of protecting themselves from this predator. The hope is that Greys, not accustomed to them, will be at a disadvantage. Greys are heavier than Reds and spend more time on the woodland floor, making them more vulnerable to Pine Marten attack. Reds, being lighter, can next higher and on flimsier branches than Pine Martens can use. But I suppose the thing to do is wait and see. No doubt there is ongoing monitoring and, at some point, results will be published.

It was on springwatch funnily enough a couple of weeks ago showing the reds and pine marten i think in Ireland. After showing them for a bit - it was sort of slipped in - something along the lines of " this year however there have been no red kits" - really - wow how surprising - maybe to some !

 

[buckonabike]

It was on springwatch funnily enough a couple of weeks ago showing the reds and pine marten i think in Ireland. After showing them for a bit - it was sort of slipped in - something along the lines of " this year however there have been no red kits" - really - wow how surprising - maybe to some !

 

[buckonabike]

"Our study has confirmed that exposure to pine martens has a strong negative effect on grey squirrel populations, whereas the opposite effect was observed in red squirrel populations who actually benefitted from exposure to martens”

Pine Marten - British Red Squirrel

The European pine marten, Martes martes, is a member of the family Mustelidae within the order Carnivora. It is widespread throughout much of north and western Europe but rare or absent in much of its historic southern European range. The pine marten is omnivorous and feeds upon a wide variety...

www.britishredsquirrel.org

The article references a study carried out in Scotland, published in 2018

 

[jall55]

"Our study has confirmed that exposure to pine martens has a strong negative effect on grey squirrel populations, whereas the opposite effect was observed in red squirrel populations who actually benefitted from exposure to martens”

Pine Marten - British Red Squirrel

The European pine marten, Martes martes, is a member of the family Mustelidae within the order Carnivora. It is widespread throughout much of north and western Europe but rare or absent in much of its historic southern European range. The pine marten is omnivorous and feeds upon a wide variety...

www.britishredsquirrel.org

The article references a study carried out in Scotland, published in 2018

Im not buying it tbh
There are already more than enough predators all over the place

 

[nun_hunter]

Im not buying it tbh
There are already more than enough predators all over the place

Why would an organisation dedicated to protecting and increasing red squirrels numbers lie about the benefits of introducing pine martens if they were actually having a detrimental impact on the red squirrels numbers?

 

[Nickb]

Why would an organisation dedicated to protecting and increasing red squirrels numbers lie about the benefits of introducing pine martens if they were actually having a detrimental impact on the red squirrels numbers?

Its just a university study not exact science. Pine Martens will still predate on Reds.

 

[Mungo]

Im not buying it tbh
There are already more than enough predators all over the place

Sort of raises the question of how red squirrels ever survived when we weren’t around to protect them from the nasty predators…

 

[jall55]

Sort of raises the question of how red squirrels ever survived when we weren’t around to protect them from the nasty predators…

Is that not the same with everything ?

 

[jall55]

Why would an organisation dedicated to protecting and increasing red squirrels numbers lie about the benefits of introducing pine martens if they were actually having a detrimental impact on the red squirrels numbers?

If you read it - one of the lines says about reds not visiting feeders because of pine marten - well the one thing we all know is that to thrive and spread food sources need to be available - this is just putting even more pressure on the reds

 

[timbrayford]

Sort of raises the question of how red squirrels ever survived when we weren’t around to protect them from the nasty predators…

Or indeed how woodland was able to thrive in the presence of deer?

 

[nun_hunter]

If you read it - one of the lines says about reds not visiting feeders because of pine marten - well the one thing we all know is that to thrive and spread food sources need to be available - this is just putting even more pressure on the reds

I did read it and it said they modified their behaviours unlike the grey squirrels. It didn't say they stopped eating and starved, just that they didn't visit areas of higher threat from pine martens, which were artificial feeding stations. Plenty of natural food about for them, especially now as the grey squirrels were focusing on the feeders and also having their numbers reduced by the pine martens.

 

[Mungo]

Is that not the same with everything ?

Well indeed.

So whenever a predator is implicated in decline of prey species, you need to explain why it’s doing it now but historically didn’t drive it to extinction.

 

[Mungo]

Or indeed how woodland was able to thrive in the presence of deer?

Predators!

 

[countrryboy]

It suits the various charities ideals if they dont have to get volanteers to cull the greys.
And all wildlife charities for some reason love there predators above all else.
Esp in scotland where u now need to jump throu the extra hoops of an airgun licence.

Id say the study has a bit of a flaw in that they never removed PM from an area and seen wot happens to reds.
I would expect red numbers to rise if no PM and no greys.
Id say the PM is a good indicator species for prime red habitat, which makes sense as they evolved together.
So the pressence of PM just shows its prime red habitat so ud expect their to be plenty reds about also.
Plus greys and reds have slightly different habitat preferences, so wot will suit a PM might suit reds over greys.
So untill they study a few areas ( basically an Otterburn type study, 2 control sites and 2 flipping over the removal of PM, but will never happen) and remove the PM the conclusion is slighted flawed.

Althou their is no doubt reds can happily survive and co exist with PM.

And while i do believe PM will predate on greys far more than reds. I think greys spend something like 70-80% of their time on the deck compared to reds about 5%.

The massive flaw in this argument is not the few reds that will be predated by the PM.
But can u imagine just how many PM u would need to wipe greys out on a regional or national level. Be a massive number.
And wot else are they going to be killing?
Even if they did only eat greys intially when grey numbers are high as numbers reduce PM will only switch to other food sources.
Hell the last few greys in each area may likely get wise to PM predatation so their offspring might very hard to kill ( no different to lamp shy fox or lamped deer, easy to get numbers initially)
So wot are all these PM going to eat?
U can guarantee reds will be on the list as well as almost every other bird or animal species.
How many birds really need the extra predation pressure??

 

[countrryboy]

Sort of raises the question of how red squirrels ever survived when we weren’t around to protect them from the nasty predators…

The problem with reds is not the predators but the greys.
A combination of the disease they carry Squirrel pox, thankfully only the english greys carry it.

And greys can eat accorns before their ripe, so can harvest a tree beforecthe reds can.
And even then any uneatrn accorns wont grow as not mature.

Must admit i reckon reds only have 20 or 30 yrs left.
If squirrel pox becone established in the scottish central belt greys its game over.

I never seen a grey until i was 19 and went to uni.
In last 20 years but esp the last 5-10 they are bloody everywhere now down here.
Still odd reds hanging on but getting rarer and rarer to see 1 now.
1st time i trapped a grey at my house here, seen it set 8 traps. Next morning i seen 6 reds, caught 5 reds and a grey.
Sadly just dont have that number of reds around anymore.

Just peeing into the wind.
Grant money stopped a few years ago for estates to have trappers 3 months a year, which helped.
Fortunately still have a FT trapper but they need far more than that.
Yet always plenty money for fcuking 'project officers' that do bugger all practical good.
Do 2 yrs and move to their next failed project

Really need to bring back the poison and make it compulsory as part of any woodland/forestry grants, and hammer areas with no greys so atleast their not constantly being pushed into red habitat.
If u create big vaccums in wot was grey areas many would nove in to fill the void taking pressure of the red/grey areas where they need to be trapped.
The amount of damage u see to hard wood trees by greys is absolutely shocking.
Makes a mockery off all the work put in doing deer control beforehand.
Almost a waste of time even planting hardwoods in many areas

 

[jall55]

I did read it and it said they modified their behaviours unlike the grey squirrels. It didn't say they stopped eating and starved, just that they didn't visit areas of higher threat from pine martens, which were artificial feeding stations. Plenty of natural food about for them, especially now as the grey squirrels were focusing on the feeders and also having their numbers reduced by the pine martens.

Watch Springwatch as i say - NO red squirrel kits this year - but plenty of pine marten - Good enough evidence for me

 

[jall55]

Well indeed.

So whenever a predator is implicated in decline of prey species, you need to explain why it’s doing it now but historically didn’t drive it to extinction.

Because simply there are now so many more predators and less prey

For example a Lapwing in a field with its group of 20/30 birds can fend off a crow or half dozen - a couple of lapwings in a field and 10 crows - Nest gone - chicks gone - eventually lapwings gone

 

[jall55]

Or indeed how woodland was able to thrive in the presence of deer?

One can only presume higher densities if not actual higher numbers of deer - and again think that many of the deer species are non native so it depends what time scale you are thinking