Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Heym SR20]

@Conor O'Gorman firstly thank you for all your continued hard work. The voluntary phase out of lead from field sports put forward a few years ago has prepared the way forward. There are plenty of good viable alternatives. BASC, GWCY etc are all membership organisations and frankly if the membership where unhappy with direction of travel they would have voted those running the organisations.

It is disappointing that the Game Dealers have not continued with their lead free approach. We all want much wider consumption of game meat, but unless and until the market has absolute confidence that it is free from toxic contamination, and contains a warning about lead shot or fragments, no buyer for a school kitchen will ever sign off on game meat being served. Venison prices are at an all time low, so much so I suspect many carcasses are just being dumped.

However stalking has much much bigger issues in Scotland. Frankly the way things are going it will academic whether or not a 243 can shoot copper bullets. In many parts deer numbers are now vastly reduced, so much so that many, many estates are no longer offering let stalking and having to cancel overseas clients because they have no deer to offer.

 

[Chris Richardson]

@Conor O'Gorman firstly thank you for all your continued hard work. The voluntary phase out of lead from field sports put forward a few years ago has prepared the way forward. There are plenty of good viable alternatives. BASC, GWCY etc are all membership organisations and frankly if the membership where unhappy with direction of travel they would have voted those running the organisations.

It is disappointing that the Game Dealers have not continued with their lead free approach. We all want much wider consumption of game meat, but unless and until the market has absolute confidence that it is free from toxic contamination, and contains a warning about lead shot or fragments, no buyer for a school kitchen will ever sign off on game meat being served. Venison prices are at an all time low, so much so I suspect many carcasses are just being dumped.

However stalking has much much bigger issues in Scotland. Frankly the way things are going it will academic whether or not a 243 can shoot copper bullets. In many parts deer numbers are now vastly reduced, so much so that many, many estates are no longer offering let stalking and having to cancel overseas clients because they have no deer to offer.

Have you found me that study yet ?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

On that point Conor, I have previously asked who came up with the idea, I understand that 9 organisations signed, I don't think they all had the same idea at the same time, so, which of the 9 organisations suggested it please?

I don't know, I was not involved.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

A couple of years ago I reckon and here’s why View attachment 428044

That is from circa February/March 2020, so was it sometime in 2020 when you resigned from BASC and joined SGA?

 

[Chris Richardson]

That is from circa February/March 2020, so was it sometime in 2020 when you resigned from BASC and joined SGA?

No and please don’t try to deflect or discredit me as I said I left a couple of years ago as I wasn’t happy about the lack of consultation

 

[Chris Richardson]

I don't know, I was not involved.

Of course you don’t ….

 

[Greenmist]

I don't know, I was not involved.

Thanks Conor, I'll assume minutes of a meeting or an email exist somewhere, thank you for your help

 

[Chris Richardson]

@Conor O'Gorman firstly thank you for all your continued hard work. The voluntary phase out of lead from field sports put forward a few years ago has prepared the way forward. There are plenty of good viable alternatives. BASC, GWCY etc are all membership organisations and frankly if the membership where unhappy with direction of travel they would have voted those running the organisations.

It is disappointing that the Game Dealers have not continued with their lead free approach. We all want much wider consumption of game meat, but unless and until the market has absolute confidence that it is free from toxic contamination, and contains a warning about lead shot or fragments, no buyer for a school kitchen will ever sign off on game meat being served. Venison prices are at an all time low, so much so I suspect many carcasses are just being dumped.

However stalking has much much bigger issues in Scotland. Frankly the way things are going it will academic whether or not a 243 can shoot copper bullets. In many parts deer numbers are now vastly reduced, so much so that many, many estates are no longer offering let stalking and having to cancel overseas clients because they have no deer to offer.

@Conor O'Gorman firstly thank you for all your continued hard work. The voluntary phase out of lead from field sports put forward a few years ago has prepared the way forward. There are plenty of good viable alternatives. BASC, GWCY etc are all membership organisations and frankly if the membership where unhappy with direction of travel they would have voted those running the organisations.

It is disappointing that the Game Dealers have not continued with their lead free approach. We all want much wider consumption of game meat, but unless and until the market has absolute confidence that it is free from toxic contamination, and contains a warning about lead shot or fragments, no buyer for a school kitchen will ever sign off on game meat being served. Venison prices are at an all time low, so much so I suspect many carcasses are just being dumped.

However stalking has much much bigger issues in Scotland. Frankly the way things are going it will academic whether or not a 243 can shoot copper bullets. In many parts deer numbers are now vastly reduced, so much so that many, many estates are no longer offering let stalking and having to cancel overseas clients because they have no deer to offer.

Do you genuinely believe the reason the public aren’t eating venison is because of lead ?? Any joy on that study ?

 

[Ruger#1]

I'm waiting for all the new land to become available to stalk after all the non toxic haters pack it all in......
If we are serious about managing the uk deer population we should just get on with it ... using whatever we are able.. Simple.

Disagreeing with the lead ban and drawing attention to the hypocrisy of supporting restrictions while at the same time supposedly fighting a lead ban does not mean that those expressing those concerns will be “packing it all in”. I think your hopes for a silver lining in “all the new land “ becoming available to you might just be wishful thinking. Are you not able to find sufficient ground to shoot over at present?

 

[HonestJohn]

here’s an interesting idea to resolve the issue - use non toxic ammo. if your firearm can’t shoot it, retire it. The wold moves on.

 

[Chris Richardson]

here’s an interesting idea to resolve the issue - use non toxic ammo. if your firearm can’t shoot it, retire it. The wold moves on.

Hate to break it to you copper is toxic

 

[HonestJohn]

Hate to break it to you copper is toxic

Copper bullets retain almost all of their weight, so isn’t an issue. Lead does not, so is.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

No and please don’t try to deflect or discredit me as I said I left a couple of years ago as I wasn’t happy about the lack of consultation

I ask because you stated earlier that you responded to one of the HSE consultations and then joined SGA. Which HSE consultation did you respond to and what were your arguments? If you were unhappy with the voluntary transition as a BASC member, did you make representations to BASC Council about that? There was an online AGM on 11 July 2020 for example. The reason for these questions is that years after all these events here you are on this forum singling out BASC, yet you assert you are a SGA member. It is very strange.

 

[Chris Richardson]

Copper bullets retain almost all of their weight, so isn’t an issue. Lead does not, so is.

Almost all …… so could be an issue then

 

[Chris Richardson]

I ask because you stated earlier that you responded to one of the HSE consultations and then joined SGA. Which HSE consultation did you respond to and what were your arguments? If you were unhappy with the voluntary transition as a BASC member, did you make representations to BASC Council about that? There was an online AGM on 11 July 2020 for example. The reason for these questions is that years after all these events here you are on this forum singling out BASC, yet you assert you are a SGA member. It is very strange.

There was zero consultation with members please stop trying to make out that basc is democratically run a lot of us know otherwise, if there’s no consultation how is it voluntary?

 

[HonestJohn]

Almost all …… so could be an issue then

Not really, minimising risk. I don’t put lead shot venison on the table with my kids, would you? Do you smoke in the car with kids in it, both legal, but just not the best idea when not doing it is safer. My late father ate lead shot game his whole life, and died from Parkinson’s. My grandfather did the same and died from heart disease. My other grandfather did the same and also smelted lead to make fishing lures, he committed suicide. My grandmother also grew up eating lead shot game, she got Alzheimer’s in her ‘50s. My uncle worked as a roofer with lead based components and also ate lead shot game and smelted lead into fishing lures, he died at 48. My sister was fed on lead shot game whilst we grew up, she died from pancreatic cancer aged 49. So was I, I was diagnosed with heart disease this year. My other surviving sister has early onset dementia in her 50s. We all are not over weight and eat healthily in general, etc.

The only underlying common denominator apart from genetics is we all grew up with a large amount of lead shot game in our diets, were exposed to lead fuel and melting lead, shooting in indoor ranges, etc.

The correlation coefficient may be low, but, it’s enough to make me not repeat the past with my kids

 

[Hambone]

I ask because you stated earlier that you responded to one of the HSE consultations and then joined SGA. Which HSE consultation did you respond to and what were your arguments? If you were unhappy with the voluntary transition as a BASC member, did you make representations to BASC Council about that? There was an online AGM on 11 July 2020 for example. The reason for these questions is that years after all these events here you are on this forum singling out BASC, yet you assert you are a SGA member. It is very strange.

The problem with BASC is the long standing two faced approach to this issue and others (hunting ban anyone?) BASC set themselves up as the voice of field sports but don't like the criticism when found wanting!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

There was zero consultation with members please stop trying to make out that basc is democratically run a lot of us know otherwise, if there’s no consultation how is it voluntary?

That's more hyperbole. BASC is democratically run with a constitution and elections. Every year there are elections for BASC Council members. The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting that was encouraged since February 2020 was voluntary. There has been over 5 years consultation on that. It was voluntary - it has been your choice whether to move away from lead shot for live quarry or not. If you were unhappy with the voluntary transition strategy as a BASC member, did you make representations to BASC Council about that? There was an online AGM on 11 July 2020 for example.

The HSE review of lead ammunition is another matter and the outcome is a likely ban on the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting. With that in mind I ask again, which HSE consultation did you respond to and what were your arguments?

 

[Chris Richardson]

Not really, minimising risk. I don’t put lead shot venison on the table with my kids, would you? Do you smoke in the car with kids in it, both legal, but just not the best idea when not doing it is safer. My late father ate lead shot game his whole life, and died from Parkinson’s. My grandfather did the same and died from heart disease. My other grandfather did the same and also smelted lead to make fishing lures, he committed suicide. My grandmother also grew up eating lead shot game, she got Alzheimer’s in her ‘50s. My uncle worked as a roofer with lead based components and also ate lead shot game and smelted lead into fishing lures, he died at 48. My sister was fed on lead shot game whilst we grew up, she died from pancreatic cancer aged 49. So was I, I was diagnosed with heart disease this year. My other surviving sister has early onset dementia in her 50s. We all are not over weight and eat healthily in general, etc.

The only underlying common denominator apart from genetics is we all grew up with a large amount of lead shot game in our diets, were exposed to lead fuel and melting lead, shooting in indoor ranges, etc.

The correlation coefficient may be low, but, it’s enough to make me not repeat the past with my kids

Yes I do , as there’s zero evidence eating lead shot game causes harm , not one study showing it , I’m sorry for your family’s heath problems but it’s not conclusive evidence is it

 

[Chris Richardson]

That's more hyperbole. BASC is democratically run with a constitution and elections. Every year there are elections for BASC Council members. The voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting that was encouraged since February 2020 was voluntary. There has been over 5 years consultation on that. It was voluntary - it has been your choice whether to move away from lead shot for live quarry or not. If you were unhappy with the voluntary transition strategy as a BASC member, did you make representations to BASC Council about that? There was an online AGM on 11 July 2020 for example.

The HSE review of lead ammunition is another matter and the outcome is a likely ban on the use of lead shot for live quarry shooting. With that in mind I ask again, which HSE consultation did you respond to and what were your arguments?

If someone else volunteers me for something how is that voluntary or democratic? Did you ask members if they’d like to be volunteers?