Interesting open letter concerning the lead shot/ammunition ban
- Thread starter Spear Chucker
- Start date
Or if he’s mentally well , I seem to remember earlier in this thread him questioning if certain folk should have an fac perhaps he should look closer to home with his unhealthy obsessions …..
Hook'N'Bullet
Well-Known Member
Coming out guns blazing!
Well said! Over the few threads its mainly been lead is bad vs lead is fine but delighted to see some mentions of the different types of lead and their solubility in the human body. I'm not pro/against either side, I'd shoot copper if I could find a reasonably priced offering.
Spear Chucker
Well-Known Member
Have you actually read the report or did you just grab URLs you thought might prove us to be the intellectual minnows and onanists you clearly feel we are?I have very little desire to be involved in this continual spiral of argument, but the studies exist and are suitably easy to find that you could have found them yourself.
Here is one study I found off about 30 seconds of internet search for the correlation between lead ingestion in adults and blood lead levels:
Influence of Ingestion of Game Meat on Blood Concentration of Lead in Southern Germany: A Pilot Study - PMC
Consumption of game meat may exert additional lead exposure with potential health risks. The purpose of the present pilot study was to determine blood lead concentration in game meat and no game meat consumers in southern Germany. Concentration of ...pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Here is a study which ties blood lead levels to the physiological effects in humans:
The Weight of Lead: Effects Add Up In Adults - PMC
Sorry, your message was so dripping with superiority, sarcasm and condescension, i just had to yank your chain.
"A limitation of the present pilot study may be that hobbies other than hunting and shooting sports, e.g. stained glass or ceramics, or residential and workplace proximity to potential sources of lead were not included. Also smoking as a potential contributor to blood lead levels (Richter PA 2013) was not assessed in the present pilot study and should be incorporated in future studies addressing effects on blood lead level in humans."
"However, overall differences in lead blood concentrations were very low and mostly below the biological tolerance value of 200 µg·L− 1. Nevertheless, game meat consumers as well as active hunters and shooters should take in to account their potential for an increased lead exposure and the corresponding potential health risks. "
I am fascinated by the linguistic error discussing the "consummation" of game meat (I think the author probably meant consumption) - I know that in parts of Germany, game meat is much revered but this presented possibilities even I with my twisted little mind had not envisioned.
Anyway, I digress.
" Furthermore, for blood lead concentrations above the biological tolerance value, the DFG lists a biological reference limit, which describes a threshold for which certain protection manners must be used at the working place. In the 2020 list, this value was 200 µg·L− 1 for lead blood concentration (https://mak-dfg.publisso.de). In the present pilot study, only one male study participant showed a blood lead concentration above this limit (288 µg·L− 1). Although he was a game meat consumer, he also was an active sports marksman at the IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) with many practical training units at short shooting distances and the use of lead containing ammunition, which was most likely the main reason for such a high blood lead concentration in this individual."
All of the above, in this interesting report, is hardly justification to ban or support a ban on lead ammunition. As the author clearly states, we are talking minutely elevated levels of lead in the blood in a community of people who regularly eat shot game. In the UK where the only people that really seriously eat game are those that shoot it (the commercial market in the UK is largely non existent -most of the excess is exported) and ware of the risks and indulge even so.
Indeed, if lead is so dangerous the clever thing for the antis and their leg-humpers would be to let us carry on eating it in the hope we will poison ourselves. That they and BASC et al are pushing for a ban indicates that they have worked out that this is unlikely to be a sucessful strategy, as the poison isn't really doing the job.
Spear Chucker
Well-Known Member
"Inside every commie is a capitalist trying to get out. It's your job to let him out"...(hands him knife)
I read through the first link German study and note in the discussion section the following statementI have very little desire to be involved in this continual spiral of argument, but the studies exist and are suitably easy to find that you could have found them yourself.
Here is one study I found off about 30 seconds of internet search for the correlation between lead ingestion in adults and blood lead levels:
Influence of Ingestion of Game Meat on Blood Concentration of Lead in Southern Germany: A Pilot Study - PMC
Consumption of game meat may exert additional lead exposure with potential health risks. The purpose of the present pilot study was to determine blood lead concentration in game meat and no game meat consumers in southern Germany. Concentration of ...
Here is a study which ties blood lead levels to the physiological effects in humans:
The Weight of Lead: Effects Add Up In Adults - PMC
“ Although the difference between game meat and no game meat consumers was statistically significant, the difference per se is very low and therefore might biologically not be relevant “
The problem with quoting studies in support of further lead shot legislation is that invariably those quoting give no context, critical interpretation or degree of impact of the the data supplied in their links and as a consequence it is allowed to be assumed that the quoted studies are all evidence in support of the case for further lead shot legislation.
As demonstrated above the conclusion in the Discussion section that the difference between lead shot game eaters and non game eaters may not be not be biologically relevant might equally be used to illustrate that the small lead blood level increases are insignificant and thus evidence that the worry regarding the impact of consuming lead shot game is not supported by scientific study.
Rather than posting links to arguably non conclusive studies in support of the case for further lead ammunition restrictions as has been the case throughout similar threads can we instead agree to restrict our justification for further restrictions based on studies that quantify impact in order for each of us to make a decision as to whether the scale of legislation proposed is justified by the evidence available.
To date no quantifiable impact data has been produced since 2016 when the government rejected the case for further lead shot restrictions on the basis that the evidence presented was not significant enough to justify further restrictions .BASC and all the other shooting organisations were not calling for any lead restrictions and BASC also concluded that the Lead Ammunition Group’s findings did not show the impact of lead ammunition was significant enough to justify any change in policy.
The simple question remains unanswered
Where is the scientific data carried out post 2016 that is sufficient to overrule the conclusion in 2016 by the government and BASC that the impact of lead ammunition use is not significant enough to merit further restrictions.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
When did you leave BASC as a member?
I would leave but tied into with my wildfowling club, I have Dads old WAGBI badge somewhere in a box with all his bit's and bob's
If he was alive today and seen how the cards have been dealt it would not be a good phone call.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
"In conclusion, game meat consumers as well as active hunters and shooters should take in to account their potential for an increased lead exposure and the corresponding health risks".Have you actually read the report or did you just grab URLs you thought might prove us to be the intellectual minnows and onanists you clearly feel we are?
Sorry, your message was so dripping with superiority, sarcasm and condescension, i just had to yank your chain.
"A limitation of the present pilot study may be that hobbies other than hunting and shooting sports, e.g. stained glass or ceramics, or residential and workplace proximity to potential sources of lead were not included. Also smoking as a potential contributor to blood lead levels (Richter PA 2013) was not assessed in the present pilot study and should be incorporated in future studies addressing effects on blood lead level in humans."
"However, overall differences in lead blood concentrations were very low and mostly below the biological tolerance value of 200 µg·L− 1. Nevertheless, game meat consumers as well as active hunters and shooters should take in to account their potential for an increased lead exposure and the corresponding potential health risks. "
I am fascinated by the linguistic error discussing the "consummation" of game meat (I think the author probably meant consumption) - I know that in parts of Germany, game meat is much revered but this presented possibilities even I with my twisted little mind had not envisioned.
Anyway, I digress.
" Furthermore, for blood lead concentrations above the biological tolerance value, the DFG lists a biological reference limit, which describes a threshold for which certain protection manners must be used at the working place. In the 2020 list, this value was 200 µg·L− 1 for lead blood concentration (https://mak-dfg.publisso.de). In the present pilot study, only one male study participant showed a blood lead concentration above this limit (288 µg·L− 1). Although he was a game meat consumer, he also was an active sports marksman at the IPSC (International Practical Shooting Confederation) with many practical training units at short shooting distances and the use of lead containing ammunition, which was most likely the main reason for such a high blood lead concentration in this individual."
All of the above, in this interesting report, is hardly justification to ban or support a ban on lead ammunition. As the author clearly states, we are talking minutely elevated levels of lead in the blood in a community of people who regularly eat shot game. In the UK where the only people that really seriously eat game are those that shoot it (the commercial market in the UK is largely non existent -most of the excess is exported) and ware of the risks and indulge even so.
Indeed, if lead is so dangerous the clever thing for the antis and their leg-humpers would be to let us carry on eating it in the hope we will poison ourselves. That they and BASC et al are pushing for a ban indicates that they have worked out that this is unlikely to be a sucessful strategy, as the poison isn't really doing the job.
The author does not call for a ban. Neither has BASC.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Why would you leave?I would leave but tied into with my wildfowling club, I have Dads old WAGBI badge somewhere in a box with all his bit's and bob's
If he was alive today and seen how the cards have been dealt it would not be a good phone call.
Despite me being a bit rough around the edges it is best I don't answer that on here via email/pm or the phone or anything that might require the few remaining codebreakers from hut 6 at Bletchley Park
Perhaps the pro lead restrictions posts you have been responsible for may have played a part.
I’m in a similar situation,loyalty to my wildfowling club membership since the 1990s not long after it formed which requires BASC membership or leaving BASC on principle due to the mishandling of the lead shot issue and your support for further restrictions.
Yet your post history will show a relentless drive to present information in an attempt to justify further lead shot restrictions.
If BASC is not calling for a ban why have you been permitted by BASC to undermine that policy in your position as a BASC employee ?
terrier1
Well-Known Member
They're not available they're out of stock because no one is using them.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Consumer choice at its best then?
fixedwheel
Well-Known Member
This from the Eley Hawk product page:-
Eley Hawk Game Cartridges | High Performance Game Loads
Explore Eley Hawk’s range of high-performance game cartridges, designed for precision and reliability in every game shooting environment.
Looks like Mr. Harriman is stating BASC's position on lead there, otherwise it wouldn't state his role at BASC, now would it?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
BSC(Hons) Agriculture, MPhil Management Studies (Oxford) and 30 years working with scientific tech based companies at University spin out stage through to acquisitions by Pharma, bringing in the finance from Venture Capital investors. My role is take the base science into a form that is readily understood by sophisticated investors. I work in partnership with leading academics, scientists and medical practitioners both within the companies and with investment groups. I am currently helping colleagues set up a specialist biotech fund for early stage spin outs.
Part of my job has been getting into the company’s science and really understanding it, bringing other specialists into review it and then using this as a basis for putting in the funds to take it to the next stage.
Re lead. Key background work was by Prof Maro Ohanian at the MD Anderson Cancer Clinic Houston in Texas. The papers showing strong correlations was published early 2020 in the American Journal of Haematology. This work has been brought to medical use by a Dutch based company called Pleco Therapeutics which has now secured Orphan Drug status for their new approach to cancer treatment removing heavy metals, in particular lead, from a patient’s blood. They are now working towards full regulatory approvals. Part of this has been to show at a cellular level the method of action and removal of lead reinstates the ability of p53 and other similar proteins to control disease.
As regards Tobacco and Nicotine. Nicotine is a complex large molecule. If you have a look at Plantform Therapeutics you will see how they developed technologies to make tobacco plants switch from producing nicotine to produce useful mono clonal antibody type drugs that are biosimilars to existing animal cell produced drugs for treatments of cancer and infectious diseases.
Regarding 22 Centre fires and non lead. One of the primary claims of the new legislation is to remove lead from dead animals that will then be consumed by raptors and other wildlife. It makes no sense to allow 22 centrefires to continue using lead, especially if carcasses of foxes, rabbits etc are left for other wildlife to consume.
If they are going to allow lead, then they absolutely ensure that carcasses are removed and disposed of in a way that prevents other wildlife from being poisoned.
There are now plenty of lead free solutions for 22 Centrefires that work well. Perhaps not so much in slow twists rates 22 Swifts, 22-250s and 22 Hornet, but certainly in standard 1 in 12” and faster 223, 22 Arc, 22 CM etc.
Meanwhile how are you getting on with your own research into why lead is not harmful and that will show that the WHO etc have all got it wrong.
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timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Bill is a comparatively wealthy bloke with an extensive collection of guns, if he chooses to bugger one up through bad ammunition choices I dare say he could shove it in Holts and take whatever profit or loss and dump the problem on someone else!This from the Eley Hawk product page:-
View attachment 430794Eley Hawk Game Cartridges | High Performance Game Loads
Explore Eley Hawk’s range of high-performance game cartridges, designed for precision and reliability in every game shooting environment.www.eleyhawkltd.com
Looks like Mr. Harriman is stating BASC's position on lead there, otherwise it wouldn't state his role at BASC, now would it?
it makes no sense to ban lead shot for clay shooting also, but then also allow elite athletes to carry on using it.
Any luck on finding me a study yet that conclusively proves illness in humans from eating lead shot game ?
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