Condemned

[Mungo]

I debated putting a similar comment up here yesterday. I know Peter is a very, very well respected vet but I don't follow the comment:



@NickJ - are you able to elaborate at all? There's no pressure in the system once the heart stops beating so by poking knife in its chest all you are doing is letting out a bit of blood that would be in the heart and main vessels in the chest cavity - which would all come out during gralloch anyway. I could never see a mechanism for bloody migrating out of, say, haunches in these circumstances.

It’s a discussion that pops up occasionally.

As far as I can tell, short of using the sort of kit embalmers use, it doesn’t seem possible to remove blood from the cardiovascular system once the heart stops.

 

[Tim.243]

It’s a discussion that pops up occasionally.

As far as I can tell, short of using the sort of kit embalmers use, it doesn’t seem possible to remove blood from the cardiovascular system once the heart stops.

You might have to click on Watch on YouTube but these guys do it for a living (not like us)
Shoots the cattle in the head then sticks the heart in a very few seconds for a reason.
No different to a head shot deer except "best practice" says wait 5mins!

In Slaughterhouses stock is shot/stunned then goes up in the air, they start the bleeding and then the process begins
And I am sure you know how the Halal system works.

 

[Mungo]

You might have to click on Watch on YouTube but these guys do it for a living (not like us)
Shoots the cattle in the head then sticks the heart in a very few seconds for a reason.
No different to a head shot deer except "best practice" says wait 5mins!

In Slaughterhouses stock is shot/stunned then goes up in the air, they start the bleeding and then the process begins
And I am sure you know how the Halal system works.

Yes - the whole idea of halaal (as I understand) is to get the heart to pump all the blood out. Which makes perfect sense in a hot climate before refrigeration was invented.

Chest shot isn’t much of a problem because it usually dies of massive blood loss. But exactly as you point out: if you head shoot and wait, there doesn’t seem like there’s much you can do!

 

[Buchan]

I've been doing a bit of reading prior to having to teach some meat hygiene. As a lot of folk have said for a bleed to be effective, it has to be while the heart is still pumping. Carcasses are bled to reduce meat spoilage due to blood being a great growth medium for bacteria, which might imply that chest shot venison is less prone to spoilage than neck or head. But I can't find any studies on this.
There's an argument that a chest shot, being an open wound with a trail of contaminants, and bleeding into the chest wall is a source of spoilage.
So it might balance out.
Most of the bleeding we do is to drain the thorax of blood

I've not noticed any difference in eating quality of chest, neck or headshot venison

 

[VSS]

How do you bleed a carcass once the heart stops?

You can't. Not in the true sense of the word.
Poking a knife in the neck of an already dead animal in the belief that you're "bleeding" it is a complete waste of time, and potentially introduces contamination.
Some blood will escape the carcass at the entry or exit wound, and more will collect in the thorax (of a chest shot deer). This can all be drained out as part of gralloching, either when opening the chest (if doing a full gralloch) or through the diaphragm (if doing a field gralloch).

 

[Mungo]

You can't. Not in the true sense of the word.
Poking a knife in the neck of an already dead animal in the belief that you're "bleeding" it is a complete waste of time, and potentially introduces contamination.
Some blood will escape the carcass at the entry or exit wound, and more will collect in the thorax (of a chest shot deer). This can all be drained out as part of gralloching, either when opening the chest (if doing a full gralloch) or through the diaphragm (if doing a field gralloch).

I’ve never really understood the traditional ‘bleeding’, when they stick a knife into the high chest and do some chest compressions.

 

[VSS]

I’ve never really understood the traditional ‘bleeding’, when they stick a knife into the high chest and do some chest compressions.

Me neither.

 

[Bugsy]

Me neither.

My cousin was sent the picture of the condemed red deer in question and I popped down to see him , the deer was skinned in the picture and the vet had condemed the deer on the colour of the fat around the kidney area . Obviously the kidneys were not in the animal .
The colour of the fat looked in my opinion the same as any animal that had been in the chiller for 3 days and kept at the right temp . As we all know when gralloching a deer there is always the chance that some blood will either spill or drain around the kidney / pelvic area but when back at the larder this is wiped out as per game dealers instruction which he did . In my veiw and going by other suppliers to this game dealer there taking the p..s and I would probably say that these so called condemed animals will be put to other uses there is no way anybody in my mind would send the carcass I seen to an incinerator .. utter madnesss and pathetic and if it is the vets that are having the last word then God help us we’re f…..d .

 

[WW.]

To be fair to the dealer, it's not them that condemns carcasses. It's always been the case, across the entire meat industry, that vets/inspectors are an independent 3rd party. Historically employed by the local authority, then more recently by the Meat Hygiene Service, then DEFRA.
Having no commercial interest in the carcasses, they are free to condemn as they see fit, not pressed into passing borderline carcasses as it will cost the premise owner money but compromise public safety.

The issue come when a vet, used to working in a modern sheep/beef/pig plant, is then transferred to a game facility. To them, it's a horror show.

My own dealer has had these issues, he rues the day his old inspectors were replaced with (often Spanish or Italian) young vets.
Different 'rules' apply at a AGHE, it's not possible to work to domestic red meat standards.
Examples? External contamination, a little light mould on the inner surface of the ribs that are discarded when skinned and boned out, not knowing how long it took for the animal to be bled or eviscerated so look 'suspect'.
Few carcasses at the dealer would pass the more stringent domesticated animal parameters, but nobody died with the more laissez faire approach.

I'm not saying that there are no rogue dealers about, but condemning carcasses is not in their interest per se.

A large part of the issue with OVs is the geniuses at DEFRA decided to outsource the provision of OVs rather than employ them directly. The company which won the tender very deliberately eviscerated our domestic OV sector over many years by shipping in European vets and paying them a pittance whilst pocketing the profits. A number of individuals from this company have since been working their way into DEFRA and it's been impossible to get DEFRA to put a stop to them as a result. Even after we left the EU (which meant we no longer had to accept vets from the EU regardless of whether their training met UK standards), this company managed to get DEFRA to give them exemptions to still be able to recruit EU vets and have them doing OV work even when not fully qualified to do so including signing off forms in English before meeting English language requirements. Supposedly whilst under supervision. It's a complete farce.

 

[VSS]

My cousin was sent the picture of the condemed red deer in question and I popped down to see him , the deer was skinned in the picture and the vet had condemed the deer on the colour of the fat around the kidney area . Obviously the kidneys were not in the animal .
The colour of the fat looked in my opinion the same as any animal that had been in the chiller for 3 days and kept at the right temp . As we all know when gralloching a deer there is always the chance that some blood will either spill or drain around the kidney / pelvic area but when back at the larder this is wiped out as per game dealers instruction which he did . In my veiw and going by other suppliers to this game dealer there taking the p..s and I would probably say that these so called condemed animals will be put to other uses there is no way anybody in my mind would send the carcass I seen to an incinerator .. utter madnesss and pathetic and if it is the vets that are having the last word then God help us we’re f…..d .

Are you able to share the photo with us, please?

 

[Bugsy]

Ill see what I can do .

 

[Bugsy]

A large part of the issue with OVs is the geniuses at DEFRA decided to outsource the provision of OVs rather than employ them directly. The company which won the tender very deliberately eviscerated our domestic OV sector over many years by shipping in European vets and paying them a pittance whilst pocketing the profits. A number of individuals from this company have since been working their way into DEFRA and it's been impossible to get DEFRA to put a stop to them as a result. Even after we left the EU (which meant we no longer had to accept vets from the EU regardless of whether their training met UK standards), this company managed to get DEFRA to give them exemptions to still be able to recruit EU vets and have them doing OV work even when not fully qualified to do so including signing off forms in English before meeting English language requirements. Supposedly whilst under supervision. It's a complete farce.

Thanks for that info .

 

[AGR]

I know one estate owner who managed to get to the bottom of a laundering scheme by inserting a sixpence between the skin and carcass, and with the cooperation of both police and the dealer identify who was involved in the ‘play’.

It's been going on a long time then, unless the landowner has a large stock of old sixpences!

 

[HonestJohn]

Me neither.

Depends if you do a full gralloch or field gralloch. On a field gralloch where the heart and lungs and diaphragm are left for the larder, bleeding will greatly reduce the amount of blood coagulation in the frontal chest cavity.

When forced to drag reds on the ground for long distances, a field gralloch, and leaving the arse intact to say it bluntly, with only a small slit for gralloch, greatly reduces exposure and contamination risk

 

[Freeforester]

It's been going on a long time then, unless the landowner has a large stock of old sixpences!

This was to catch a thief, and was indeed some years ago, but the principle remains: something small can be used to identify a particular carcass among many.

 

[VSS]

Depends if you do a full gralloch or field gralloch. On a field gralloch where the heart and lungs and diaphragm are left for the larder, bleeding will greatly reduce the amount of blood coagulation in the frontal chest cavity.

When forced to drag reds on the ground for long distances, a field gralloch, and leaving the arse intact to say it bluntly, with only a small slit for gralloch, greatly reduces exposure and contamination risk

In that circumstance you're not bleeding it. You're just making a hole and letting some accumulated blood out. Rather than make a hole in the neck (which just makes another entry point for contamination during the drag) you can puncture the diaphragm and get the accumulated blood from the chest out through the same incision as the green gralloch.

 

[VSS]

A large part of the issue with OVs is the geniuses at DEFRA decided to outsource the provision of OVs rather than employ them directly. The company which won the tender very deliberately eviscerated our domestic OV sector over many years by shipping in European vets and paying them a pittance whilst pocketing the profits. A number of individuals from this company have since been working their way into DEFRA and it's been impossible to get DEFRA to put a stop to them as a result. Even after we left the EU (which meant we no longer had to accept vets from the EU regardless of whether their training met UK standards), this company managed to get DEFRA to give them exemptions to still be able to recruit EU vets and have them doing OV work even when not fully qualified to do so including signing off forms in English before meeting English language requirements. Supposedly whilst under supervision. It's a complete farce.

UK vets don’t want to do the job, so defra has no choice but to employ vets of other nationalities in the meat inspection sector.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

UK vets don’t want to do the job, so defra has no choice but to employ vets of other nationalities in the meat inspection sector.

It’s the dregs of the veterinary world doing that job and slaughterhouses good money but shite work

 

[kenbro]

Seems to be something other than beginning with J, given the cold chain continuity, there is no possibility for bacteria to develop in the manner suggested, until that cold chain is broken.

The absence of photographic evidence and inability to retrieve the carcass despite it clearly being still within reach up to the point of condemnation rather suggests a word beginning with F to my mind. One would imagine a game dealer might want to have procedures in place in order to indemnify himself against any such accusations too.

It’s possible to slit the veins where they leave the haunches in order to pump out any residual blood in the unlikely scenario that the carcass was insufficiently exsanguinated at the time of the shot. Similarly, it’s possible to positively identify a carcass against another by making a similar mark or marks on certain areas of the skin, unique to yourself. Three such tiny marks will positively identify your carcass against another.
I know one estate owner who managed to get to the bottom of a laundering scheme by inserting a sixpence between the skin and carcass, and with the cooperation of both police and the dealer identify who was involved in the ‘play’.

Where did he get the sixpence from?

 

[Tim.243]

Where did he get the sixpence from?

His pocket money from shooting squirrels